Are you gonna get an electric car anytime soon? (Or do you already have one?)

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Geoff,

Like I mentioned, if you are driving locally, then thats fine, plug it in at home. But a long trip is not guaranteed to be easy in any EV, where ever you live, and no matter which one you buy. Especially if there aren't an abundance of fast chargers where you choose to head, and especially in very cold weather. Before I was retired, I drove 60 to 80k miles a year. The Kia battery warranty would last me a year and a half. So for long drives, EV's and the supportive infrastructure have a very long way to go. I'm actually looking forword to Toyota's hydrogen powered vehicles. They exhaust water moisture and the infrastructure to support Hydrogen gas refills is already in place. Advancement on those is occuring more rapidly than EV support infrastructure.

[Joe Redifer]

This is the first time I've seen this thread so I'll answer the question, even though it's old...

EVs need better range and faster charging before I'll be interested. Like, really fast charging... 5 minutes for at least 300 miles. Then hell yeah I'll be interested. Oh, and I'd prefer a battery type other than Li-ion. Like.. maybe one where if they catch fire, they can actually be extinguished? Maybe it's just me but I kind of like it when fires can be stopped... does that make me weird? Am I just a silly goose? And completely unreasonable? No, I don't think so. Until then, EVs can go get fukt.

Also, yes I already have an iPad (mini) and no I do not plan on getting an Apple Watch or any other kind of watch.

[Leo Enticknap]

I typically drive between 500 and 1,000 miles a week on service calls, to a total of between 40K and 45K miles a year. Most of my daily trips (70 to 100 miles each way, so 140 to 200 total) would be just within the advertised range of most of the EVs that are being marketed as replacements for regular sedans and SUVs (i.e. not luxury vehicles), but I have to do a trip that would be significantly outside it probably 3-4 times a month. Almost none of the sites I regularly visit have EV chargers in their lots or garages as of now. The only one I've noticed that does (the parking garage above the Writers' Guild theater) has always had all its charging spots occupied whenever I've driven past them. LIkewise, on a service visit to Boise in February, I accepted a Tesla 3 from Hertz at the airport (mainly because I was too tired to resist their hard sell after six hours of flight delays). The hotel had two charging spots, and they were both occupied on all the occasions I tried to use them. I had to return the car with only a 30% charge or so left in it and pay Hertz's penalty charge to have them recharge it.

So regardless of the math still not adding up (a big emerging problem is insurance: in California, insuring an EV costs between two thirds more and double that of its ICE-powered equivalent), an EV simply would not work for my use case as of now.

[Lyle Romer]

This is the first time I've seen this thread so I'll answer the question, even though it's old...

EVs need better range and faster charging before I'll be interested. Like, really fast charging... 5 minutes for at least 300 miles. Then hell yeah I'll be interested. Oh, and I'd prefer a battery type other than Li-ion. Like.. maybe one where if they catch fire, they can actually be extinguished? Maybe it's just me but I kind of like it when fires can be stopped... does that make me weird? Am I just a silly goose? And completely unreasonable? No, I don't think so. Until then, EVs can go get fukt.

Also, yes I already have an iPad (mini) and no I do not plan on getting an Apple Watch or any other kind of watch.

I witnessed a fatal Tesla fire near my home a few years ago. The driver was going significantly over the speed limit and veered off into the median and hit a tree. The battery ignited and, when I got to the area fire rescue was already on scene. The guy was trapped but still alive. The fire couldn't be extinguished and it was too hot for rescuers to attempt to get him out. I'm in agreement that I'd prefer not to drive around in something that has the ability to burst into an unextinguishable inferno.

[Leo Enticknap]

As the Ford Pinto episode demonstrated, ICE-powered vehicles have the potential to do that as well. The difference is that we have a century and a quarter's experience of mitigating and managing down the risk (of uncontrolled ignition) incurred by sitting in close proximity to up to 20 gallons of gasoline. We're still at a much earlier stage with BEVs, and I suspect that the risk won't be managed down to a level that most would be comfortable with until li-ion and li-poly are in the rear view mirror, and more stable battery chemistries have gone mainstream.

What Lyle saw explains, I suspect, why insurance costs for EVs are so much higher than those of their ICE-powered equivalents: accidents involving them tend to be a lot more pricey.

[Geoff Jones]

Anyone looking into an EV should check with their insurance agent.

Insurance for my Kona is the same as for my other two cars.

Insurance for Teslas definitely seems to be much higher, which makes sense, considering the issues with those cars.

Car insurance has been rising considerably across the board, for all types of cars. Part of this is due to the fact that repairs are more expensive. A bump on the fender now means you have to replace a back-up camera. Part of this is also do the fact that cars themeslves are more expensive. Manufacturers are focusing on more expensive models and making far fewer entry-level vehicles.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Our car insurance (Subaru Crosstrek) went up 23% last year, and another 23% this year. Changed insurance companies and knocked it back down. In more than 50 years of driving, I've never had an accident or filed a claim.

[Leo Enticknap]

Without wanting to pick a fight or have this come across as a personal attack in any way, I am somewhat triggered by someone claiming they've been driving for decades without ever having been involved in an accident; though I understand that in this context, it's directly relevant to a discussion of insurance prices (of which more in a mo). Such a claim seems to me to be analogous to someone claiming that they are 85 and have never been inside a hospital since the day they left the maternity ward. Good lifestyle choices can be a big part of the reason why, but good luck is an equally big part of the reason. Applied to driving, someone who spends most of their life in a rural area and only has to drive 8-10K miles a year stands a much better chance of achieving half a century of accident-free driving than someone who, like me, is required to drive 30-40K miles a year for work alone, and furthermore has to do so on some of the busiest, congested, and accident prone roads on the planet.

I was in five accidents between 2016 and 2022, none of them my fault. The first was caused by someone changing lanes while I was in her blind spot without her checking it first, and side swiping me. Thankfully it was on a 40mph city street and there was nothing more than property damage. The repair bill for my car (Honda Fit at the time) came to $5K. The second was at a T-junction at which I was waiting to turn left out of a side street. The other driver made a right onto the side street from the main road, misjudged the turn, veered into the left turn lane in which I was waiting, and his front driver's side hit the front passenger's side of my car as he made the turn. That was a $3K bill. The third was the nastiest: someone turned left into an intersection across my path when I had the green light going straight across, and I hit her at around 30mph after braking as hard as I could (the limit was 45 and I was well within it when I saw her start to turn and hit the brake). I ended up with cuts and bruises (mainly from the airbag), and her with broken ribs. Both cars were totaled. Thankfully, I had dashcam footage to prove that I had the green. The fourth was vehicular sodomy while waiting at traffic lights. The speed of impact was barely walking pace: new bumper cover needed, at $750. The final accident, in March 2022, was the weird one. As the garage door was opening, the jackscrew seized, the spring broke, and two sections of the door detached and fell, causing dents and dings to both my and my wife's car, and taking out my wing mirror. The bill came to around $10K total for the cars and the door, with a long battle and paperwork to determine whether homeowner's or auto insurance would cover the door (unsurprisingly, each tried to claim that the other was liable).

I contend that absolutely no amount of due diligence on my part could have prevented any of those accidents. I'd even sprayed garage door lube on that spring and jackscrew every six months or so during the five years between when we moved in and its failure. This is why "I've been driving for [insert number of decades here] and never been in an accident" tends to raise my blood pressure a bit.

Where this is relevant to insurance costs is that even for the party judged to be not at fault, the insurer incurs costs that they cannot recover from the party at fault. For the most serious accident (the one that put me in the hospital, if only for a few hours, and totaled my car), the other party only had $5K of third party coverage (the California legal minimum), and I had uninsured loss coverage. My insurer likely had to eat all the other costs. So even if you have driven for many years without being involved in an accident, if you live and drive in an area in which either the accident rate is relatively high, or in which the costs of recovering from accidents are relatively high (e.g. hospital fees, or the hourly labor charge for auto repair techs), or both, then that will filter through into your annual premium hikes.

As for EV insurance, my neighbor decided to replace her car last fall. After a lot of research, she narrowed it down to a Nissan Rogue vs. a Volkswagen ID4 (electric). She was quoted $1,800 a year to insure the Rogue vs. $3,100 for the electric Volkswagen. Third grade math was enough to show that the insurance cost alone was enough to wipe out the energy cost saving on the electric, so she bought the Nissan.

[Joe Redifer]

As the Ford Pinto episode demonstrated, ICE-powered vehicles have the potential to do that as well.

Yeah? What about cars with EXTERNAL combustion engines? Do we really need to indicate "internal"?

[Randy Stankey]

Stanley Steamer: External Combustion Engine

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[Harold Hallikainen]

You're right, Leo! I did forget one accident maybe 30 years ago. I was in a rental car in Dallas. I was stopped at a light. A city bus pulled into the left turn lane next to me and ripped off the left outside mirror of the rental car.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Yeah? What about cars with EXTERNAL combustion engines? Do we really need to indicate "internal"?

I'm still waiting for a model with a PICE: A Plug-In Combustion Engine...

[Lyle Romer]

The way I look at the EV situation is that if you can charge at home and pretty much never use it for a round trip more than 200 or so miles from home then an EV can work for you and you may end up saving money in the long run.

I can't fathom trying to do any kind of long trip with an EV. The time added to the trip for charging would be too much for me to handle. At least once a year I'll do a 1000 mile-ish each way road trip. The thought of having to sit around charging for 45 minutes every 250 miles makes me cringe. It's even worse if the chargers are all in use and you have to wait for one. I just don't have the patience.

Even if chargers were available at rest stops and places I was stopping to eat (which they usually aren't), it doesn't take that long to use the bathroom and when I stop to eat on a road trip it's fast food and I'm in and out in 20 minutes.

My F150 might not get great gas mileage but with the 36 gallon tank I'll get over 550 miles range on the highway and be able to fill it up in 5 minutes.

[Mike Blakesley]

My F150 might not get great gas mileage but with the 36 gallon tank I'll get over 550 miles range on the highway and be able to fill it up in 5 minutes.

I have that same situation. The longest "miles to go" after a fill-up I ever got on my F150 was 715, that was after I'd been highway-driving all day. Usually it's around 600.

someone who spends most of their life in a rural area and only has to drive 8-10K miles a year stands a much better chance of achieving half a century of accident-free driving than someone who, like me, is required to drive 30-40K miles a year for work alone, and furthermore has to do so on some of the busiest, congested, and accident prone roads on the planet.

I'm one of those rural-dwelling people, and true to form I've gone a long time without a wreck. (Most of my vehicular mishaps have been a result of stupid deer bolting out in front of me.) But, I did have a close call in Denver -- I went to change lanes on I-25, and my vehicle's radar went nuts beeping and flashing, and I realized I had almost merged into another car which had come up fast in my blind spot. In my previous vehicle that would have definitely been a 70mph crash.

[Mike Blakesley]

My F150 might not get great gas mileage but with the 36 gallon tank I'll get over 550 miles range on the highway and be able to fill it up in 5 minutes.

I have that same situation. The longest "miles to go" after a fill-up I ever got on my F150 was 715, that was after I'd been highway-driving all day. Usually it's around 600.

someone who spends most of their life in a rural area and only has to drive 8-10K miles a year stands a much better chance of achieving half a century of accident-free driving than someone who, like me, is required to drive 30-40K miles a year for work alone, and furthermore has to do so on some of the busiest, congested, and accident prone roads on the planet.

I'm one of those rural-dwelling people, and true to form I've gone a long time without a wreck. (Most of my vehicular mishaps have been a result of stupid deer bolting out in front of me.) But, I did have a close call in Denver -- I went to change lanes on I-25, and my vehicle's radar went nuts beeping and flashing, and I realized I had almost merged into another car which had come up fast in my blind spot. In my previous vehicle that would have definitely been a 70mph crash.