Are you gonna get an electric car anytime soon? (Or do you already have one?)

[Steve Guttag]

We do have a lot of significant cities between the coasts...but there is a LOT of space between those cities. And, for each major cities there are often a lot of smaller cities...you could link those up with rail though I think you'll find that those in the middle of the country will tend towards neither rail or air travel. As you get towards the extreme north and south you are more likely to find those interested in air travel...probably less by rail...particularly where snow can impede travel by rail.

[Bobby Henderson]

We do have a lot of significant cities between the coasts...but there is a LOT of space between those cities.

That really depends on the definition of "a lot." I don't consider a 200 mile or so jump from one big city to the next "a lot." From the I-35 corridor on Eastward the United States has dozens upon dozens of legit-size cities from the Deep South up to the Canadian border that have that kind of spacing frequency, if not closer. West of the I-35 corridor population centers are far more spread out. But there are still pretty significant clusters of cities. The Front Range region along the I-25 corridor from Pueblo, CO up to Cheyenne, WY is home to over 5 million people. The Western US may not have nearly as many major population centers, but it does offer a lot more in the way of scenery. If the US could ever get a nation-wide high speed rail network off the ground any service in the more mountainous West could offer a serious tourism draw.

[Mike Blakesley]

If the US could ever get a nation-wide high speed rail network off the ground any service in the more mountainous West could offer a serious tourism draw.

It would probably be OK, but there are a lot of people who wouldn't go for it. Lots of scenery seekers want to do it on their own time, in their own way, at their own speed... which requires a car. I would hate to be stuck on a train going through some scenic area and not be able to pull off the road and take a walk around. People are also picky about what time of day they travel. They want to see the mountains at sunrise or the ocean at sunset, for example, or drive through a wildlife area in the evening during the mating season for moose or elk, or get up close and personal with a buffalo jam (which is fun, if un-nerving).

I wouldn't mind a train ride if I had a fairly short journey with a long stay at a destination at the end of it, but if I'm going exploring in any way, I prefer to drive. Our "travel yardstick" has almost always been, if we can drive it in a day, we drive -- because it takes about a whole day to fly anywhere from where we live, thanks to us being 100 miles from the airport and 500-1000 miles from there to any of the "hub" cities. Driving is more entertaining, more comfortable, about a quarter of the cost, and takes about the same amount of time as flying for a journey anywhere up to about 500 miles.

[Steve Guttag]

As someone that has lived in the Washington DC metro area my whole life and had family in New York (city)...most anyone that goes between those two cities knows that train is the way. You go from city-center to city-center. The boarding/un-boarding process is only a gazillion times faster on the train than a plane and, for NYC...the plane puts you on the outskirts of the city. There are those that may desire to drive in NYC or even through NYC...but I am not one of those people! Oh, I've done it, but I don't want to do it (nor park there). Furthermore, on a train, it is relatively peaceful and one can get some work (or reading) done. I don't advise sleeping unless you are sure you have a fool proof way to get up...trains don't hang out at the stations long...where I get on, now is mostly in the BWI area...that train stops for something like 10 minutes...be prepared!

[Bobby Henderson]

As someone that has lived in the Washington DC metro area my whole life and had family in New York (city)...most anyone that goes between those two cities knows that train is the way. You go from city-center to city-center.

That's one (of multiple) fatal flaws with high speed rail efforts in the United States. I think I said it before in this thread (or another one): it's going to be extremely difficult/costly to build new high speed rail stations in city centers. The stations alone would be a hard enough hurdle. Linking real high speed track directly to the stations would be even harder or just impossible.

The high speed project in California (when/if finished) will reduce trains to using conventional, shared, slow-speed tracks as they enter the far outskirts of the Los Angeles and SF Bay areas. And that doesn't take into account where the stations will be located. Passengers may be forced to transfer from other commuter/light-rail trains (or use other modes of transportation) to reach a high speed rail station. That ruins a lot of advantages over air travel. If the US could figure out how to build new tunnels without it absolutely destroying a budget going under the city centers could be an option. Elevated viaducts are less costly than tunnels, but lots of property owners really really don't like them.

I don't advise sleeping unless you are sure you have a fool proof way to get up...trains don't hang out at the stations long...where I get on, now is mostly in the BWI area...that train stops for something like 10 minutes...be prepared!

I was pretty nervous on one Amtrak trip I took from New York City to Jacksonville, FL. I was so worried I'd oversleep in my cabin, miss my stop and wake up well on the way to Miami. Thankfully I slept light enough to notice train stops when they were happening. When the train pulled into Jessup, GA I knew I needed to get dressed and get my stuff together for the next stop. There was what seemed like about an hour long lay-over in Washington for them to switch locomotive engines from overhead electric to diesel electric. They didn't have Acela service yet then. I imagine quite a few passengers on the Silver Star have to switch trains now.

It would probably be OK, but there are a lot of people who wouldn't go for it. Lots of scenery seekers want to do it on their own time, in their own way, at their own speed... which requires a car.

I don't know; I think it's pretty thrilling to look out a train window and see ground-level scenery whooshing by at well over 100mph. My family lived in Japan over 40 years ago; they had the Bullet Train back then. Landmarks like mountains would move by a lot faster than they would when viewing them from a car on a highway. That would be something for the American West where big mountains can be seen from 50-100 miles away. An American high speed rail line might not need quite as many tunnels as the Bullet Train has in Japan.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Louise and I took Amtrak from Denver CO to Emeryville CA and back. We had a sleeper car, and it was great! But it was just for fun, and we were not in a hurry. We went through the snow covered Rockies and Sierras during the day. I'm hearing that due to a possible freight train strike, Amtrak is cancelling long haul train service since they use freight rails. That's a pain for Amtrak travelers, but it could be a real pain for companies waiting for their freight.

Harold

[Mike Blakesley]

It'll be a pain for everybody, if it happens. It'll lead to another round of supply chain issues, since most "container" freight these days gets to a hub via train and then travels the last distance by truck. I heard on the news yesterday that it would take something like 167,000 trucks to move the amount of stuff that trains move -- and there already aren't enough truck drivers. I'm not sure how many days that means, but anybody can see that one train can carry several hundred truckloads of stuff.

I have family and friends that are railroaders and their complaints are legit. My nephew took his family on a one-week vacation to a lake near here last summer -- but he only got to spend a total of two days there because he had to come back twice to work. They are literally on call 24/7 with almost no guaranteed days off, so they can't really plan anything, including holiday gatherings. He said he's cancelled more appointments this year than he's been able to keep -- doctor, dentist, haircuts, etc.

[Bobby Henderson]

As of this morning a tentative deal has been reached to avert the rail workers strike (after more than 20 hours straight of negotiations). I didn't know these guys weren't getting basic things like any paid sick leave. Rail companies have shed thousands of workers and posted record profits, but it sounds like they've been treating their employees like cattle. The trucking industry is hardly any better at all. Long haul trucking is already a difficult enough job if you're an owner-operator. But it can be a really shitty job if you're a driver working for a trucking company. It is no accident why the trucking industry has a severe shortage of drivers. Many employees take the jobs and quit a short time later due to what turns out to be terrible pay and terrible/dangerous working conditions.

[Buck Wilson]

I do kind of wonder what'll happen to the auto parts industry -- currently, our best selling items are filters and alternators/batteries, none of which will be needed for an EV.

EVs still have a 12v battery and use 12v for most everything, it’s safer and more cost effective than having the 360+v main battery and associated high voltage wiring running things like map lights and window motors.

I think that electric cars are cool but they aren't going to solve the main problem. A car weighs two tons. It takes a certain amount of energy to push a two-ton hunk of steel down the road, whether it be powered by gasoline, electricity or unicorn dust.

While that is true, it’s not exactly a fair comparison. Electric cars are far more efficient at doing that specific job than gasoline cars. If x is the amount of energy it takes to move the car from town a to town b, an electric car uses almost exactly x energy whereas a gasoline car uses x plus another 60% of x that is just wasted as heat. The engine in a gas car is a wildly inefficient way to convert an energy source into useful kinetic energy.

And how green are we really if we keep charing our EVs with electricity produced from coal, gas and oil?

Gasoline engines in cars are so inefficient that a EV charged on a 100% coal fired grid (which exists nowhere in the United States) is STILL more efficient. It certainly takes longer to ‘break even’ as it were, but EVs are indeed still more efficient, and that INCLUDES battery manufacture. Carbon output only goes down from there as you move to renewable energy.


Anyway, here's my personal experience and opinion on EVs.

I bought a 2011 Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid with about 40 miles of EV range before engine ever kicks on)with 152,000 miles in April of 2020 for $5,250. I'll happily admit I got lucky as hell purchasing what I did, when I did. It was the bottom of the car market apparently.

It has EASILY been the best car I've ever owned. In the 2.5 years since, I have put 58,000 miles onto it (now has 211k)... almost all of which has been hard mileage; pizza delivery and rural newspaper delivery. I drive roughly 80 miles a day, on average 6 days a week. I essentially fully cycle the battery in it twice a day.

Costs... wow. This thing costs less to drive by HALF than the previous most efficient vehicle I ever owned- a Ford Festiva. I drive for about 5 cents a mile, and that includes everything; gas, electricity at home, and public charging. It'd be even cheaper if it were a full EV and I only charged at home. I have saved over $6000 in fuel over having kept my previous vehicle, a 4 cylinder Saturn Vue. That means the fuel savings alone have more than paid for the vehicle. I'd happily drop $7,500 on a new main battery for it, the car owes me NOTHING.

I have had ZERO repairs besides a seat belt buckle receiver that I accidentally broke. Only two oil changes in that time... roughly once a year.

Beyond that, drivability is massively improved. Instantaneous and nearly silent acceleration. No more dumb shifting automatics that are wildly annoying in regular driving let alone on a stop-and-go delivery route.

Plus, EVs have additional perks! I can get an inverter and power home essentials from my car for days if the power were to go out. Newer EVs can power an entire home for days. They're also awesome for camping. Throw a mattress in the back and have AC all night long without running an engine!

I am very excited for EVs and look forward to getting a full EV. Probably the Equinox when it comes out next year.

Edit to add- my cumulative total MPG over 58,373 miles is currently sitting pretty at 83.1. Also, I charge at home with a regular ass 120v outlet. Enough for a full charge while I sleep, and enough to mostly keep it topped off between jobs/errands. I do plan on upgrading at some point though.

[Jon Dent]

As of this morning a tentative deal has been reached to avert the rail workers strike (after more than 20 hours straight of negotiations). I didn't know these guys weren't getting basic things like any paid sick leave. Rail companies have shed thousands of workers and posted record profits, but it sounds like they've been treating their employees like cattle. The trucking industry is hardly any better at all. Long haul trucking is already a difficult enough job if you're an owner-operator. But it can be a really shitty job if you're a driver working for a trucking company. It is no accident why the trucking industry has a severe shortage of drivers. Many employees take the jobs and quit a short time later due to what turns out to be terrible pay and terrible/dangerous working conditions.

An American company makes record profits and treats their employees like shit? No way!

[Lyle Romer]

EVs still have a 12v battery and use 12v for most everything, it’s safer and more cost effective than having the 360+v main battery and associated high voltage wiring running things like map lights and window motors.

I'm very surprised about that. Are you sure the full EVs have a 12V? For hybrids they kept the 12V battery mostly because they were the same car (except the Prius and Volt) as the gas only version so it was easier to keep the same 12 V architecture. From an engineering perspective I don't see why you'd need a 12 V battery to supply 12 V power to electronics and accessories. If there's a 12 V battery in there, they still have to step down the main battery voltage to charge it. Why not just feed all the 12 V stuff off the same stepped down supply?

It would probably be OK, but there are a lot of people who wouldn't go for it. Lots of scenery seekers want to do it on their own time, in their own way, at their own speed... which requires a car. I would hate to be stuck on a train going through some scenic area and not be able to pull off the road and take a walk around. People are also picky about what time of day they travel. They want to see the mountains at sunrise or the ocean at sunset, for example, or drive through a wildlife area in the evening during the mating season for moose or elk, or get up close and personal with a buffalo jam (which is fun, if un-nerving).

I wouldn't mind a train ride if I had a fairly short journey with a long stay at a destination at the end of it, but if I'm going exploring in any way, I prefer to drive. Our "travel yardstick" has almost always been, if we can drive it in a day, we drive -- because it takes about a whole day to fly anywhere from where we live, thanks to us being 100 miles from the airport and 500-1000 miles from there to any of the "hub" cities. Driving is more entertaining, more comfortable, about a quarter of the cost, and takes about the same amount of time as flying for a journey anywhere up to about 500 miles.

Years ago we did an Alaska cruise and at the end there was a rail trip from Anchorage to Denali. I said right afterwards that if I ever did the trip again, I'd much rather drive the scenic route than take the train.

[Mike Blakesley]

I'm curious if there have ever been any wintertime EV tests, especially with towing. I've never heard of any - and I'm sure the industry is not going to emphasize anything that's going to make EVs "look bad," but it's definitely a valid concern. I'm curious how much range a person would get if it's 10 degrees outside, considering you not only have to run the car but also generate heat. (And hopefully there's a way to warm up the cab before jumping in, which is the main reason people in this part of the country leave their cars idling for 10 minutes or so before they take off.)

[Buck Wilson]

I'm very surprised about that. Are you sure the full EVs have a 12V? For hybrids they kept the 12V battery mostly because they were the same car (except the Prius and Volt) as the gas only version so it was easier to keep the same 12 V architecture. From an engineering perspective I don't see why you'd need a 12 V battery to supply 12 V power to electronics and accessories. If there's a 12 V battery in there, they still have to step down the main battery voltage to charge it. Why not just feed all the 12 V stuff off the same stepped down supply?

Yep. I don't know if it will always be that way, but that is the case for now.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...olt-batteries/

Notable quote-

But powering up the stereo does not require 800 volts. Nor would you want that coursing through every circuit in the car, for a variety of reasons. Safety, for one.

We asked Hyundai's EV engineers why the 12-volt battery persists, and Ryan Miller, manager of electrified powertrain development, responded. "All the ECUs in the vehicle are powered from the low voltage, as well as the power relays that separate power from the high-voltage battery pack and the rest of the high-voltage network in the car," he said. "That separation allows us to safely disconnect the high voltage from the low voltage when the vehicle is not being driven or in the event of a crash." You don't want first responders to contend with door locks powered by Doc Brown's Mr. Fusion.

[Buck Wilson]

I'm curious if there have ever been any wintertime EV tests, especially with towing. I've never heard of any - and I'm sure the industry is not going to emphasize anything that's going to make EVs "look bad," but it's definitely a valid concern. I'm curious how much range a person would get if it's 10 degrees outside, considering you not only have to run the car but also generate heat. (And hopefully there's a way to warm up the cab before jumping in, which is the main reason people in this part of the country leave their cars idling for 10 minutes or so before they take off.)

Yes, there's definitely a huge hit for towing and/or winter heat use. Half or more of the range in extreme cases. But that is the nature of the beast... there is much less energy stored in an EV battery than there is in a tank of gas, full stop. So any situation that decreases your efficiency makes a bigger dent in the range of an EV than it does for a gas car. Things are improving though, EVs are getting heat pumps for heat to drastically reduce that energy demand.

And yes, as far as I know, you can 'precondition' any EV (including my 11 year old PHEV) before you leave while it's still plugged in to keep from losing that range before you even leave your driveway. You can even do it in a closed garage!

[Steve Guttag]

I'm surprised that they didn't go to heat pumps on day 1. Once you have an AC system...the heat pump is just a reverse of the cycle (which is what makes them so attractive for home heat and the energy put into a heat pump compared to resistive heat really slants towards heat pump. There are few things as power hungry for heat as resistive heat.

I'm wondering when they'll move to a buck/boost type converter to go from "Doc Brown's Mr. Fusion" down to 12V using the main batteries. I would presume they are already using one to charge the 12V battery.