Prism contamination

[Frank Cox]

It's always easy to spend the other guy's money of course, but if it was me in that position I would look at the cost of renting a projector to tide me over until I could get that grant approved.

[Mike Blakesley]

Well I was thinking this might be a slow creeping death, but it's looking more like a late stage cancer at this point. The picture I posted on the top was from 8 days ago, and here is one from today. Even the parts that are still white don't look like a brilliant white, it's more like an off-white. Ugh.
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The worst part of this is, I'm working on a grant from the Rural Energy for America Program which would pay for part of the cost of a laser machine (due to its energy efficiency) but I wouldn't be allowed to "incur costs" until the grant application forms are in and acknowledged as "complete." We all know how rapidly the government moves. So now it's down to a decision whether to do a short term fix or not. I just hate the thought of going through the rest of the summer "blockbuster season" with this shitty picture.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

We had an exchange prism for an NC2000. The problem was very visible looking into the prism face lit from the front but moreso with a phone flashlight from the rear.
The exchange one was fine, all image discoloring gone.
The prism came clamped in a cage, just the prism. It's not a trivial job to take one out of the projector's prism mount and worse to put one back in. The wiring, cooling plates, hoses, thermistors, etc have to be put on exactly right.

Not only all that stuff you mentioned Dave.... But the securing screws for all critical parts of the light engine are supposed to be torqued to the proper amount. You can find out those specs from either NEC or Strong. I had the torque kit shown below. It's about $300 from Graingers.

[Sam Chavez]

Well there we are. Steve puts the case fairly and comprehensively as he always does. There's something in there for everyone. Someone has some shopping to do.

[Steve Guttag]

If one looks at Barco's history on maintaining parts supply on discontinued projectors, it has been quite good. How long did they support the DP100 past its discontinuation? It was pretty close to if not 10-years. The wild card in all of the long-term parts support is the effects of C19 and the supply chain combined with chip shortages/plant burning down that has allowed/caused early obsolescence of various chips/semiconductors. How much investment will a company make to overcome part inavailability?

Christie is the one that scares me on parts. Even before C19, getting a 3-month lead time on a critical part (standby supply, PIB, TPC or even the IMB S2) was not unheard of and even semi-common. The standby supply one can overcome with a little effort. Try to roll your own PIB! Barco/Cinionic, of the big three, is a 24/7 company. I've NEVER not been able to get a part fast...and that includes in a C19 world. And, by fast, I mean same day/next day...weekends/holidays included. Yes, normal parts orders are, typically a 2-week lead time from Belgium. Okay...those are normal parts orders. At least you know that is the typical lead time. Every once in a while you get a longer lead time. When you are down and move into the expedited class, there are depots all over where the parts can get to you fast. Yes, it cost more in shipping (and I don't think unreasonably so), but you WILL be back up that day or the next. Seriously, I had a switch mode power supply (LVPS in some circles) go down at opening...by 4:00pm, the replacement came walking in the door and they didn't miss their evening shows (it was on a Friday too). That sort of support is worth something.

As for light engines, Cinionic does have an RX system now for those though I wouldn't call it very cost conscious. The other two are significantly cheaper on many parts and similar programs (though for NEC, I believe it is just Strong that does the clean and repair of prisms...that is where we source them and they always supply good ones though your backfocus may be WAY off). NEC will also let one change just the formatter, which can be cheaper than even the prism swap.

I agree that Barco and Christie are notably better on their S2 4K (or S2K) images. NEC has very low contrast and also very low light output/watt (about 20% less than Barco or Christie). That said, NEC's 1200-2000 and even the 3200/3240 are very solid performers in terms of reliability. Early 1200-2000 had some LPS issues...early ones had some router issues and early ones had the dreaded power switch issues. But, overall, NEC has the fewest problems/per unit of the systems we service. NEC, typically, has a greater degree of granularity of parts offered. Barco is very much into modules/assemblies...so the parts price disparity is even greater there. NEC's .69" lenses and their lens mounts have horrible motorized resolutions so they never come back to the same place twice so I would avoid them if you need to move the lens between formats. They are much better on the .98 and 1.2/1.38 DMD lenses.

If it were me, I probably would not use xenon in a commercial cinema, going forward though I think xenon looks notably better. It's the economics of it all. Laser is, now, typically, cheaper on day-1 and cheaper every day thereafter...right down to not needing an exhaust. That said, once you do consume your lasers (fade down), that will be an expensive repair that will likely be a substantial portion of a new projector. And if laser-phosphor, factor in changing that too. NEC has a novel ideal on their "ML" series lasers (those with the suffix ML)...the rear portion with the lasers and phosphor wheel is exchangeable. So, once you consume the lasers, you RX just that portion and do not have a tech go in there and change out the laser modules or phosphor wheel assemblies. The ML series is available in 2K and 4K.

As to targets with all of the ratios (like Christie's Framing V2 or words to that effect)...meh. What I've taken to doing is I have screen files with those ratios already done. So, I load the screen file for the ratio I'm working on...immediately save it under a different name on that projector and merely trim for keystone (curve pincushion). The screen file lets me zoom, center, trim with any target to focus and full white...it goes pretty fast.

[Darin Steffl]

How much is extended warranty usually on the new series 4? I worry about the cost of replacement parts on a $65k projector as it sounds like a light engine replacement is $35k or so.

[Leo Enticknap]

The cost of one-time Barco parts purchases has gone up a lot in the last couple of years: Cinionic is aggressively trying to nudge end users into extended warranties. That having been said, at least you can get the parts if you need them. Christie made me nervous during the pandemic because of long wait times for parts. A particular vulnerability with their Series 2 models is that the "brain" of the projector is in the external touch panel/mini PC: if that dies, so does the projector. I had one customer who was forced to replace a projector earlier than he would have liked, because the touch panel broke and he was told that there was a seven-month wait for a new one. I don't know if this situation has improved since: I haven't worked on any Christies, apart from to replace bulbs, in almost a year.

A couple of Cinemacons ago, I was told that Barco/Cinionic would maintain parts availability for B and C Series 2 projectors until at least 2028, because a large number of them are in use under VPF contracts that run until then. Added to which, Cinionic is still selling laser conversion kits for them, and a converted projector has the same light engine, lens mount/motors, and card cage components as a xenon-lit one.

[Sam Chavez]

I was talking a new Christie Xenon 2K to be sure. I do agree with Leo about a nice used Barco 23B and even splurge for 4K if you can manage it. Buying used Barco make me nervous as the parts are very expensive and no guarantee how long they will support xenon. The warranty on Barco parts is generally 90 days. It takes half that time to make it over from Belgium! I trust Christie a bit more as they are fully immersed in cinema for many years. Barco much more recently.

Just my opinion of course, like everything I say.

[Leo Enticknap]

Leo, if "ripped" (more like copied) from a series 1, you have the additional issue of moving from TGA to PNG. I have my preferred test patterns and they show up on most any projector I'm working on, regardless of brand.. I want to say that early S2 projectors had the S1 targets. NEC was never very generous on their targets. You got the 8-bit cross, the NEC logo and then specific patterns (color or convergence). I definitely have loaded other patterns in projectors when doing convergence too.

Absolutely. I've got a 1920x1080p framing test pattern, with guide lines for the various different ARs within that container, in PNG form, that I upload into ICPs during installs all the time to do lens and screen files for alternative content, and a version of the Barco Series 2 "Framing, Uncorrected" pattern with additional lines on it to indicate F-166, F-137, and F-133, that I use when doing arthouse installs. But the test pattern in Mike's pic is definitely the "Framing, Uncorrected" one that comes from the factory in DP-1500s, 2000s, and 3000s. I'm guessing that Mike's tech must like working with it, and therefore converted it to PNG and goes around uploading it into Series 2 ICPs.

As for Mike's contemplated projector replacement, agreed with everyone else that a lightly used, well maintained xenon machine is not a rule out. Shameless plug - we have, or can look out for, projectors that we accept as trade-ins as customers upgrade to laser, and would be happy to work with you if you'd like to contact sales [at] movingimagetech.com with an idea of your budget and expectations. And yes, you could likely upgrade to 4K xenon at a pretty reasonable cost via this route. My purely personal view on this is that if you would like to consider 4K Series 2 xenon, Barco would be preferable to NEC. The issue is contrast ratio. If you compare an NEC NC3240 with a Barco DP4K-XXB, the difference is very significant: the NEC gives you dark gray, whereas the Barco gives you actual black. I do not have enough experience with Christie or Sony to offer a valid opinion, though I do know that the Christie CP4220 has its devotees: I've installed two of them, both in high end residence theaters of film industry professionals, and in both cases because the customer demanded that specific model.

[Marcel Birgelen]

We're also considering a Christie Xenon machine, but to be honest it isn't my first choice. The problem is that colorists are very particular about their colors and laser projectors do have color issues, so laser currently simply isn't an option for us.

My primary choice would be a Barco SP4K model, it would fit in the budget and size, the reduced power and heat load in the booth would also be a welcome upgrade. Unfortunately, those machines have and always will have color issues, but I haven't seen any pronounced speckle on a regular white screen with them. Their colors often just seem to be a bit off and for some unexplainable reasons, some colors seem to be forming some aliasing artifacts. This can be primarily observed in soft gradients. Yet, in normal production content, those color problems aren't really noticeable, unless you're able to compare the picture to a correctly calibrated xenon reference.

I agree with Sam that an upgrade to 4K would be preferable. People will barely see that you switched from Xenon to laser, but the increase in detail in 4K really is visible. I'm not sure what has a higher "marquee value" though. Laser may sound more futuristic than 4K, because every electronics store around you is selling 4K TVs at bargain prices...

[Sam Chavez]

I wouldn't disregard the idea of staying with Xenon. Christie still supports this and they are brighter than NEC ever was. I just sold a 2415 last week.

Prices are very nice comparatively. Laser has higher contrast but the speckle drives me up the wall. If you're going laser, 4K is a great advertising feature.

[Mike Blakesley]

Are you sure it will be 15 next year?

Oops, bad math on my part - it will be 14 next year. We got it in June 2010. First movie through it was Toy Story 3 (in 3-D).

Maybe I was hoping it was 15 years old, makes it more justifiable to buy a new one.

I can't really justify putting 6 or 7 grand into it considering it's got one foot in the grave already. So the question becomes, what to go with next? I spent a long time at the Christie suite at CinemaCon kicking tires, but I'm not enough of a tech-head to figure out what's better.

[Steve Guttag]

Leo, if "ripped" (more like copied) from a series 1, you have the additional issue of moving from TGA to PNG. I have my preferred test patterns and they show up on most any projector I'm working on, regardless of brand.. I want to say that early S2 projectors had the S1 targets. NEC was never very generous on their targets. You got the 8-bit cross, the NEC logo and then specific patterns (color or convergence). I definitely have loaded other patterns in projectors when doing convergence too.

[Leo Enticknap]

Furthermore, that is the Barco Series 1 framing test pattern. If this is from an NEC projector, someone must have ripped it from a Series 1 Barco and uploaded it into the NEC's ICP.

Agreed with others here. Refurbished Series 2 projectors dating from the mid-teens and with around 50K hours on the clock can now be had for roughly the cost of replacing the light engine. Obviously, if you can raise the funds to go laser, you will reap the benefits of reduced operating and maintenance costs, but I realize that this would mean a big up front investment.

[Steve Guttag]

Without a doubt, it is the prism getting contaminated. I've seen that one numerous times on the NEC NC1200-NC2000. What seems to happen is the front filters tend to "strain" the contaminates such that only the smaller and more liquidy stuff comes through (keeping the larger and more sticky stuff on the outside). The fan that is at an angle that blows down on top of the prism then takes the liquidy air and pumps it down onto the prism...which obstructs the red DMD...leaving you the cyan blob.

Getting an RX is the "fix." It can go on that way for years/indefinitely though it will just get bigger and bigger. Only you can decide if the expense is worth it. If you are planning on selling off your old projector, naturally, this will lower its value to a purchaser.

Are you sure it will be 15 next year? I thought the NC2000 came out in 2010 (replacing the NC1600). Their service life has been very good.