Prism contamination

[Mike Blakesley]

An sudience will seldom complain about anything but they won't be impressed by the show, whether they actually notice the issue or not. No complaints doesn't mean that the audience is happy.

I've had times where I've told people about some problem we were having... such as a film being really scratched or whatever. As they come out they always say "Oh it wasn't the bad, we barely noticed it." I guess I am in the habit of telling people how much it bothers ME.

I'm thinking about whether we should charge ahead with the movie schedule as planned, or save a couple of the summer biggies like Mission Impossible until after the new machine is in. (I know what'll happen to those grosses though.) Whatever we do, as soon as Little Mermaid is done we're going to start telling people about our issue. I think we will just issue passes if they choose not to stay for the whole movie, rather than just giving a free one to everyone.

[Marco Giustini]

An sudience will seldom complain about anything but they won't be impressed by the show, whether they actually notice the issue or not. No complaints doesn't mean that the audience is happy.
I've heard of a full house watching a 3D show with the projector set to the wrong channel, that was when SDI was a thing. So picture was pink and green Nobody complained.
Doesn't mean they'll feel like going back

[John Eickhof]

i feel for you mike, its sad that in a situation like yours, in a small town, running one or two shows a night, basically low operating hours, hours, that the technology only lasted 13 years or so....imagine if the old motiograph or the simplex lasted only 13 years each! it makes me wonder what exhibitors are experiencing in the grind run house? i wonder if there are similar problems but they go un noticed not only by customers but the poorly trained staff as well! i will be interested in what you think of the laser machine too! good luck with that, john

[Mike Blakesley]

Mike, why not claim that the cyan or "aqua tinting" was done for "theming" on Little Mermaid! Or, explain the issue and assure people that you have a replacement projector ordered. I like the idea of an "invitation" to see the new projector in action.

So far the only person who has commented to us about the discoloration has been one of our concession workers -- not one civilian has said a word yet, which surprises me since the blue tint is now on about 1/3 to 1/2 of the screen. But, as mentioned, Little Mermaid is mostly blue anyway (even in the "above water" scenes, often the blue tint looks like the sky).

I thought about promoting the laser arrival but I'm going to wait and see how much better the picture is before I start crowing about it. I'd hate to make a big "thing" about it and then have people coming out going "eh." After all, there are probably still some folks around who don't know we aren't still using film.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Are the SP4K-C projectors available in your part of the world? They've been on "pause" around here for quite some time. I've had them on order since December and until the stuck pixel issue is resolved, they aren't shipping. What Barco did do was quickly come up with the SP4K-15B through the SP4K-25B to have something to offer in that lumen range and 4K. The lower-lumen SP4K-B do not show up on the products page and show as discontinued on the support page (Barco's) (I've seen different messages, including "not available in your area" on the SP4K).

I haven't checked the Barco site in a while, but you're right, according to it, the SP4K-15C currently is only available in China. The SP4K-15 to 25 models listed, are the "B" models. Maybe the "C" suffix in Barco's marketing is now the C for China

I know one smaller theater that ordered a SP4K-15C back in november, which has been told that their order has been delayed and they're still waiting. The integrator offerred a Christie model as a replacement, but they declined that offer, because there was a substantial difference in price, compared to the initial offer.

Last time I asked (about a month ago), the "C" (model with the .98 DMD) could still be ordered, with an expected lead time of about 3 months. The "B" had a similar lead time, but had a more expensive list price...

To add to the confusion, Barco itself decided to call the SP4K-15B just the "SP4K-15", like Leo already indicated. But a few months ago, the "SP4K-15" was still the "C" model by default (at least around here). Everybody else, including all the integrators around here, refer to them as the SP4K-15B and the .98 TRP model as SP4K-15C though.

[Steve Guttag]

Marcel,

Are the SP4K-C projectors available in your part of the world? They've been on "pause" around here for quite some time. I've had them on order since December and until the stuck pixel issue is resolved, they aren't shipping. What Barco did do was quickly come up with the SP4K-15B through the SP4K-25B to have something to offer in that lumen range and 4K. The lower-lumen SP4K-B do not show up on the products page and show as discontinued on the support page (Barco's) (I've seen different messages, including "not available in your area" on the SP4K).

Mike, why not claim that the cyan or "aqua tinting" was done for "theming" on Little Mermaid! Or, explain the issue and assure people that you have a replacement projector ordered. I like the idea of an "invitation" to see the new projector in action.

[Randy Stankey]

How about you give out invitations to the grand opening of your new projector?

[Marcel Birgelen]

We've been talking about just giving everyone who goes to the show a free pass for a future show, starting after Little Mermaid ends. That'll be a lot of freebies out there floating around, but (a) we'll still get their concession money when they redeem them, and (b) a lot of them will get lost, forgotten about, etc. and (c) maybe some of them will come with a new "paid" person. I haven't completely decided to do this though, waiting on the overall time-line.

I think, that's extremely gratuitous, maybe overly so.

I'd say that if you warn them beforehand that the picture quality isn't up-to-par, but a new, fancy laser projector is underway and people still buy into it, it's fair to give them some form of compensation for the degraded picture. An entire "free meal", while honorable, is a pretty big freebie, especially since you're going to hand them out to everyone in the coming few weeks.

Putting an expiry date on them, like Frank indicated, may also not be a bad idea. Expiry dates do come with some legal limits though, depending on local laws and regulations. A gift card needs to be at least 5 years valid, but since this isn't technically a gift card, but a "promo" (people didn't pay extra to buy the voucher), you're probably fine putting in an earlier expiry date on them.

But, to misquote THE Dude from that 1998 movie: You know, that's just like my opinion, man.

[Frank Cox]

Be sure you put some kind of an expiry date on those. You don't want someone hauling one in ten years later.

(I still get the occasional gift certificate that I gave away as prizes for this and that during the first year that I had my theatre. 28 years later....)

[Mike Blakesley]

We've been talking about just giving everyone who goes to the show a free pass for a future show, starting after Little Mermaid ends. That'll be a lot of freebies out there floating around, but (a) we'll still get their concession money when they redeem them, and (b) a lot of them will get lost, forgotten about, etc. and (c) maybe some of them will come with a new "paid" person. I haven't completely decided to do this though, waiting on the overall time-line.

[Marcel Birgelen]

The cleaning that I did had zero improvement to the problem...it was further inside and likely right on the DMD face itself.

I think this is worthwhile information. At least it shows that the prism simply isn't a field-serviceable item.

As to the other 4K TRP...I have zero problem with discussion. I do have a problem after something has been presented with 1st hand knowledge with an alternative position based on speculation, which is how you presented your information. You aren't adding to the discussion then, you are blurring it.

After 4 hours stuck in traffic, having to endure Coke from a Freestyle machine, being served probably the most terrible trial at a hamburger since the invention of patties on on buns, while waiting for the traffic to clear... those words coming from you, Steve, I consider a compliment. I love you too.

If the cause is heat, it may be but that is TI's problem. I will say that nobody that I've been in discussions with has offered that as the primary culprit. I will also state that the frequency of stuck pixels has no correlation to lumen output (which should correlate to heat). I've had more SP4K-12C projectors have a stuck pixel but that is because I have MANY more 12s out there than the rest of the line. Thus far, all of the SP4K-25 (two) have had a stuck pixel but two units is not a basis to form statistical inference. To the best of my knowledge, neither have had a repeat (it will be just about a year for one and over a year for the other). That said, all of the SP4K systems I've put in are running below 50% power and most are in the 20-35% range. So, I'd think I'd be a the low-end of the lumen/heat scale.

Well, that's the kind of info I was expecting as a reply. So, based on your own statistical input, it's most likely not power/heat related.

For me (and probably also for other prospective buyers), it's also good to know that, according to the available information, the .98" TRP models currently being shipped haven't had a design update to combat the stuck-pixel problem, but that there is, if I interpret Leo's remarks correctly, an update in the pipeline coming from TI.

See, I can call Barco on Monday and ask them and I'm sure they'll do a fine job at downplaying the problem. But if I don't need a new projector RIGHT NOW, I'd rather hold out until the potential problem has been solved. Even if Barco honors replacements as part of ongoing warranty and your projector ends up performing fine, you simply don't want to end up with a light engine which you suspect of a potential major design flaw.

What's funny to me about the above discussion is that a "stuck pixel" is the problem I was dreading and expecting to turn up as our projector got older... I never expected this thing we're getting, which is now covering about 1/3 of the screen.

I consider the stuck-pixel problem in DLP to be a bit of a cancer... Chances of getting it are increasing if it gets older, but many DLP machines will have a long life without any.

Then there also is a difference in which state a pixel is stuck. If one is stuck in the "off" state and not in the middle of the picture, those will barely draw anybody's attention. On a 4K DMD, an always-off "sub-pixel" is even less noticeable than on a 2K DMD.

We've pretty much decided to go ahead and get a new projector, since there is one available 5 weeks out and I was already planning to pull that trigger in the next year or two anyway.

Great news for your patrons, probably less great news for your bank account, but a single, independent screen, showing movies in 4K laser is at least noteworthy. Maybe try to get some local news involved?

What I'm currently struggling with is how to handle the public-facing side of things. Should I put up an explanatory sign and offer refunds if people get upset? I probably won't do anything until after Little Mermaid ends because you don't really see the problem for 90% of the movie anyway, at least not yet. What makes me the sickest is we're still going to be "blue" during "The Flash" and probably part of "Mission Impossible," just the two biggest movies of the summer, but I guess that's show biz. Timing on this thing couldn't be worse. Gonna be a long 5 or 6 weeks.

That's always a difficult decision to make... I'm speculating here (alarm!), but I guess most of your patrons are regulars. I think I'd be open with them about the presentation problems you're facing right now, but that a completely new, 4K laser projector is underway. Maybe, you can make it part of a promotion to market your new and upcoming projector and give them discount vouchers, so they can enjoy the new, and improved image as soon as the new projector arrives?

Still, be careful with advice from random strangers on the internet.

[Frank Cox]

I haven't had anything here that made the picture since I got the digital system (so far it either works or it doesn't), but I did have some films back in the day that were in pretty crappy shape and when that happened I always told people that "this movie is really scratched up and it doesn't meet my standard for showing a movie here" when they came in to buy their tickets. If they decided to buy their ticket anyway and came back out shortly after the movie started I'd give them a refund.

It wouldn't be fair to sell a ticket for a substandard show without at least giving people a warning and an opportunity to change their mind.

[Mike Blakesley]

What's funny to me about the above discussion is that a "stuck pixel" is the problem I was dreading and expecting to turn up as our projector got older... I never expected this thing we're getting, which is now covering about 1/3 of the screen.

We've pretty much decided to go ahead and get a new projector, since there is one available 5 weeks out and I was already planning to pull that trigger in the next year or two anyway.

What I'm currently struggling with is how to handle the public-facing side of things. Should I put up an explanatory sign and offer refunds if people get upset? I probably won't do anything until after Little Mermaid ends because you don't really see the problem for 90% of the movie anyway, at least not yet. What makes me the sickest is we're still going to be "blue" during "The Flash" and probably part of "Mission Impossible," just the two biggest movies of the summer, but I guess that's show biz. Timing on this thing couldn't be worse. Gonna be a long 5 or 6 weeks.

[Steve Guttag]

The cleaning that I did had zero improvement to the problem...it was further inside and likely right on the DMD face itself.

As to the other 4K TRP...I have zero problem with discussion. I do have a problem after something has been presented with 1st hand knowledge with an alternative position based on speculation, which is how you presented your information. You aren't adding to the discussion then, you are blurring it. If the cause is heat, it may be but that is TI's problem. I will say that nobody that I've been in discussions with has offered that as the primary culprit. I will also state that the frequency of stuck pixels has no correlation to lumen output (which should correlate to heat). I've had more SP4K-12C projectors have a stuck pixel but that is because I have MANY more 12s out there than the rest of the line. Thus far, all of the SP4K-25 (two) have had a stuck pixel but two units is not a basis to form statistical inference. To the best of my knowledge, neither have had a repeat (it will be just about a year for one and over a year for the other). That said, all of the SP4K systems I've put in are running below 50% power and most are in the 20-35% range. So, I'd think I'd be a the low-end of the lumen/heat scale.

[Marcel Birgelen]

@Leo: But you're allowed to state that it is in progress, so, it's not here yet?

I wasn't aware of that first redesign and the hose situation is something that would've enraged me, because those rudimentary "design errors"are the type of things you expect to be solved before they ship it to you as a finished product.

Marcel, you again try to use a different DMD that used the same similar technology to somehow make a generalization on the the specific 4K TRP problem as witnessed in the industry.

Steve, I'm not even aware of any specific problems with the TRP chips for other designs. The only thing I know is that they entered the field of "high powered projectors" relatively recently. The most common issue of premature DMD failure is overheating and from what I've been told, the TRP design is more prone to this, because of less tolerances in the design.

Nobody was disputing that the TRP DMD originated when you state.

Have they really been making 4K TRP DMDs since 2013? I doubt it but that is speculation on my part.

Yeah technically, you're not disputing it but doubting it.
And no, they haven't been making 4K TRP DMDs since 2013 (The first TRP designs were all below 2K. I think the first prototypes of UHD TRP DMDs became available around 2015-ish), but they didn't design a specific mirror for DCI chips either, that would've been far to cost-prohibitive.

The 4K DMD, as used by digital cinema (which is the only variant that matters in this forum), uniquely has shown a problem to this industry. I'll tell you what; why don't you ask the projector manufacturers if you don't have a direct link to TI if TI is working on a redesign of the 4K TRP (in the .98" size, to be more specific) to address mirror stick and report back to us. Otherwise, what you present is speculation, with respect to this problem.

I clearly indicate what parts of my narrative are speculation, and the ONLY part that's speculation is what the possible cause may be. The rest is just facts dressed up with lots of words. If you know more about the underlying case and are allowed to share, by all means, enlighten us.

Butbutbut... Like you mentioned itself, this is a discussion forum! Maybe you're allergic to speculation, (especially from someone else ), but all good (and most bad) science starts with a hypothesis (a nice word for: speculation), so I don't know why it should not be allowed, as long as it's not presented as facts. And who doesn't love some good gossip from time to time? :P

Onto the prism. Yes I pulled it to see if I could field-clean it. The liquid issue was quite evident since it wasn't just on the inside of the assembly. As one could imagine, before it got in, it was already on the outside too and migrating. I went as far as I was willing to go, given the conditions of the situation. I cleaned what I could but I didn't want to take that screen down by getting into a situation where I couldn't, at least, keep it was in (do no harm). I recommend to the client to proceed with an RX prism.

Last question (probably) on the prism situation, out of curiosity and maybe even some practical info for future cases: Did the cleaning you did yield some positive effect, despite the, most likely, improper alignment you ended up with?