electric rental cars

[Ryan Gallagher]

You would think so, but I guess you've never been to Nevada. Towns are sometimes a hundred miles apart in some places. And a few charge stations run on diesel generators because getting power to those locations would be very expensive.

That really speaks to the range conundrum. Even if every gas station in the US had chargers too, there are still routes where additional "off grid" chargers are required to make those legs doable. And what you end up with is really another gas station that just doesn't have any pumps, and is more a fuel conversion station via a genset. lol I wonder if they bothered to bury the tanks or are above ground? Certainly a normal generator sized tank is not enough.

Was probably "necessary" to claim certain parts of the country were accessible at all with EV. Until the range problem is solved (compared to ICE), those will probably stick around.

Actually the problem could get "worse"?? If homes/businesses/towns migrate to non-grid power approaches as alternatives get better and better (long term). No grid no way to power a charge station, unless the town decides to put one in powered from their own renewable generation/storage capabilities?

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Tesla had to do it right in Nevada, because their cars and Thing are made there near Sparks. Perfectly named town for an electric car manufacturer to be located in if you ask me..

[Mike Blakesley]

Maybe this will lead to a new wave of convenience stores with attached restaurants or "fun centers." If they're really smart, they'll offer you valet service. You jump out of your car, go in and have lunch or spend some time relaxing over a cup of coffee, maybe send the kids to the game room or something like that. The valet drives your car over to the fast chargers. After 20 minutes you get a text saying your car is ready, but you're free to stay there spending money as long as you want.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Maybe this will lead to a new wave of convenience stores with attached restaurants or "fun centers." If they're really smart, they'll offer you valet service. You jump out of your car, go in and have lunch or spend some time relaxing over a cup of coffee, maybe send the kids to the game room or something like that. The valet drives your car over to the fast chargers. After 20 minutes you get a text saying your car is ready, but you're free to stay there spending money as long as you want.

Nah, there won't be any employees available. They'll all be busy working in the factorys that will be returning from over seas...

[Scott Jentsch]

The biggest issue with EVs is the scarcity of charging and the perception of the impact of that scarcity by consumers.

The NEVI program was addressing the scarcity issue but that's been put on indefinite hold by this administration, so it's going to take longer to have charging stations as convenient as gas stations are. I'm very confident that it's just a matter of time, though. Wisconsin identified dozens of locations along its freeway corridors that needed charging locations, and then evaluated all the interchanges and what electrical supplies were available at those interchanges, and which were most likely to support fast charging stations with a minimal amount of infrastructure changes. It was going slowly because state law had to be changed, but they were just getting it rolling with 50 contracts approved when everything was stopped by the federal government.

Any place that has electricity can theoretically have a charging station, so even remote locations could have at least a few Level 2 outlets. DC Fast Charging (DCFC) can be done in low availability areas by using a battery system that charges a large battery slowly as a buffer in anticipation of a car needing a fast charge. As a charging car depletes the station's battery, it gets replenished at whatever rate is possible for the electrical grid connection available.

Curbside charging is also a thing, so light poles could have Level 2 (240V) outlets on them to charge vehicles parked overnight. It could also become a competitive feature for parking lots/garages to have Level 2 charging available. Fast food and fast casual restaurants could install chargers that aren't high speed, but can give you quite a bit of charge in the time it takes you to eat a meal there. Ionna has what could become a model for the gas station replacement, offering some of what Mike was talking about with a food counter, video games, and even meeting rooms for taking calls:

https://www.ionna.com/rechargeries/

The media needs to lay off the scarcity issue, but I guess that's like asking a person to stop breathing. Click-bait headlines are successful, and they perpetuate the perceptions that people have about EVs that don't necessarily apply any longer (or never did). DCFC (e.g. Tesla Superchargers) are the most noticeable and newsworthy, but the real strides will be made in the Level 2 arena.

I've been following the topic for several years and I've mapped out the various trips with PlugShare that we've taken with our gas car to see if it was possible to do with an EV. At first, it was only really possible with a Tesla due to the wider availability of Superchargers (because they only allowed their own vehicles to charge there) and the sketchy reliability issues with Electrify America stations. Now that many manufacturers can use many Tesla Superchargers, and that there are more charging stations in general (EA has improved as well), I haven't been able to find a trip I couldn't do with a few different EV models. I'm sure that there are areas of the country where it still wouldn't be possible (or at least it would be difficult/inconvenient), but those are becoming less and less with each passing month.

When people see how easy it is to have a full "tank of fuel" without having to stop special for it, that's when the inflection point for the EV transition will really happen. I'm looking forward to the day when I can make that transition.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Are there any wireless charging stations being installed? Drive into a parking space with a loop in it, a bit of data is exchanged (including payment info), and your car is charged as you go off doing something else (like eating lunch or watching a movie). The system could send you a text message when the battery is fully charged. Or, you can just go drive off without getting a full charge, but have gotten enough juice to last a while.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Are there any wireless charging stations being installed? Drive into a parking space with a loop in it, a bit of data is exchanged (including payment info), and your car is charged as you go off doing something else (like eating lunch or watching a movie). The system could send you a text message when the battery is fully charged. Or, you can just go drive off without getting a full charge, but have gotten enough juice to last a while.

Considering most wireless charging is about 70-80% efficient compared to wired. That seems like a step backwards relative to the supposed conservation goals associated with EVs. Maybe that efficiency will change one day, but seems unlikely in the near term. Though if that was THE hurdle for mass adoption, maybe the trade off would be worth it? There is a lot of chatter around the topic of wireless charging EVs, but it seems mostly just wishful thinking at this time.

[Mike Blakesley]

Maybe the day will come when whole parking lots are solar powered EV charging pads.

[Leo Enticknap]

In my neck of the woods now (including at my son's school), there are large parking lots entirely covered by canopies with PV panels on the top. The cost of this technology has now come down to the level at which in areas that get a lot of sunshine (it typically only rains for 15-20 days a year in the Inland Empire), it makes economic sense even for smaller workplaces to do that.

I'm not sure that I agree with Scott that range anxiety is the single biggest issue of public resistance to EVs. Cost (of buying the vehicle, and insuring it) and safety are there along with it. I ran the numbers last fall, not because we were thinking about replacing either of our cars imminently, but just to keep up with where things are. If I were to replace my Honda HR-V with a new HR-V, it would be around $30-35K out the door (depending on dealer junk fees, options, etc.). Gas, insurance, and maintenance would cost as near as makes no difference to what I am paying to run my existing HR-V. In terms of its capacity and performance, the nearest equivalents are the Volkswagen ID4 or the Hyundai Ioniq 5. Either would cost me $50-55K out the door, and the insurance $1.5K a year more. Assuming that I did 80% of the charging at home for the 30 to 35K miles or so I drive a year, energy costs for it would drop by around $500 compared to putting gas in the HR-V. Maintenance would drop from the $600-700 or so I pay a year for the HR-V currently, to I would guess around $200 (basically, just tires and brake components).

OK, those figures are slightly skewed by the fact that I do almost all my own maintenance (I take it to America's Tire for rotations and replacements, but all the fluid and life-limited parts swapouts I do myself). But even if I didn't, the math still wouldn't come even close to adding up in favor of an EV (I would not recover the extra $15-20K purchase price and the $1.5K a year extra insurance in even a decade of high mileage use), added to which is the increased fire safety risk of having an enormous lithium ion battery pack in my garage.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Yeah I think cost is always gonna be the factor, even if you were able to “pay for it” with savings over time, that up front cost is what shifts it from a consumer to a semi luxury item.

Maybe one day the monthly savings will match the difference on a loan, but we are not there yet. It would have to pay for itself in 3-7years using the loan calculus.

Plenty of people also own homes where solar and storage would be a benefit over time, but the installation cost is out of reach for people who are dominantly month to month, or living on a fixed income retirement.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Plenty of people also own homes where solar and storage would be a benefit over time, but the installation cost is out of reach for people who are dominantly month to month, or living on a fixed income retirement.

We have grid tied solar. I wonder about the use of storage while total peak solar production is less than total demand at all hours. Until we actually have excess solar production (greater than demand at that time), it seems like we can just back off other production and bring it back up when solar production drops. With storage, are we really storing solar generated electricity, or are we storing gas generated electricity? Use of storage to meet peak demand is interesting. How does the cost of storage to deal with the crest factor (peak/RMS) compare with just having a larger peaking plant and using occasional load shedding?

[Ryan Gallagher]

We have grid tied solar. I wonder about the use of storage while total peak solar production is less than total demand at all hours. Until we actually have excess solar production (greater than demand at that time), it seems like we can just back off other production and bring it back up when solar production drops. With storage, are we really storing solar generated electricity, or are we storing gas generated electricity? Use of storage to meet peak demand is interesting. How does the cost of storage to deal with the crest factor (peak/RMS) compare with just having a larger peaking plant and using occasional load shedding?

I was talking about Home storage products, not grid storage. But I guess you are right that the market does not specify where that energy comes from... plenty of people installing storage and not solar just to have whole home UPS functionality or reduced bills during peak hours. My novice view is that the only people who bother to install storage at home also have ample generation to make it refill it during generating hours, which was probably only true during the early adopter phase of home storage.

[Lyle Romer]

Back to the topic, the main reason that I wouldn't rent an EV isn't so much range anxiety, it's charging time. If I own an EV I can do most of my charging at home while I'm not going anywhere. On a trip where I need a rental car I don't want to have to take the time to charge and especially if I have to return it charged it is an even bigger pain. With a gas rental car it takes 2 minutes to top the tank off near the airport before the return.

I would consider an EV as a daily driver/commuting vehicle where I have enough range that I only have to charge at home so I'm never wasting time at a charging station. Unless charging get's a lot faster (which is not likely anytime soon) I will always keep at least one gas powered vehicle in the household for road trips or having one of those days where I need to drive to a million places.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Back to the topic, the main reason that I wouldn't rent an EV isn't so much range anxiety, it's charging time. If I own an EV I can do most of my charging at home while I'm not going anywhere. On a trip where I need a rental car I don't want to have to take the time to charge and especially if I have to return it charged it is an even bigger pain. With a gas rental car it takes 2 minutes to top the tank off near the airport before the return.

I would consider an EV as a daily driver/commuting vehicle where I have enough range that I only have to charge at home so I'm never wasting time at a charging station. Unless charging get's a lot faster (which is not likely anytime soon) I will always keep at least one gas powered vehicle in the household for road trips or having one of those days where I need to drive to a million places.

Actually Tesla charge stations do have a fast charge. I believe it charges to 75% in an hour. To have fast charge at home, you would need three phase, which is pretty non-existent in typical neighborhoods.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Actually Tesla charge stations do have a fast charge. I believe it charges to 75% in an hour. To have fast charge at home, you would need three phase, which is pretty non-existent in typical neighborhoods.

Compared to filling gas, an hour for 75% is still a relative “slow” charge. An hour is not bad if you need to stop for other reasons, food, bathroom, stretch legs etc.

But quite a burden if trying to do it on the way to an airport, even worse if the rental outfit only accepts “full charge returns”, that last 25% can take longer.

it is ridiculous if renters with EV fleets don’t charge at the depot upon return, tack on a “reasonable” fee if needed.

Their fees are probably not reasonable and contributing to this tendency to avoid them.