electric rental cars

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Back in the early teens when the cost of gas went through the roof, I decided to get into CNG vehicles. I had a Honda civic and a large Dodge cargo van, both with CNG fuel systems. The experience of driving and maintaining those things for 5 years seems to mirror a lot of the current EV driving experience. I had route spreadsheets made up with fueling station locations, their distance from one another, contact info, etc. I would call around to all the fuel stops on a long trip to make sure everything was green before I left. If I was going to a place with no refueling stations, I would have to arrange for the vehicle to be trailered at least one way. The range anxiety is real, and with CNG there is always the risk of a station that does not give you a full tank, and then your left without options many times. In the end, it saved me a bunch of money, and it was an interesting engineering experience. I would do it again, but only with much larger fuel capacity. I've gotten kinda used to getting over 400 miles between stops, and neither of my old vehicles would do much over 200 miles.

Josh

When I worked at CLACO the service van was CNG / Gasoline equipped, was brand new and had a 60 gallon CNG tank in it that took up 1/3 of the back of the van. The big service van could make it from Salt Lake City to Evanston, WY... about 100 miles before needing a refill. But a strong head wind would kill the mileage, at which point I'd flip over to gasoline. There was a CNG fill station right off I-80 at the Gas Company there, so it was easy to fill up. The next stop, Rock Springs, distance was about 80 miles and then there was another CNG station there, but way off the highway, south east of town. So one wasted an hour filling up and driving back to service the theater. But after Rock Springs there was nothing. The van also ran on gasoline at the flip of a switch. In fact being able to flip that switch when going up a hill demonstrated how inefficient CNG was compared to 85 octane gasoline. And I also got much better gas mileage on regular gas than I did CNG unless I kept the speed down around 55. Of all the places I went, there was supposedly a CNG fill up in Billings, MT. But on my first trip there with that van, I discovered it was closed down. As far as running a vehicle on a lighter than air gas, I always wanted to try a propane fueled vehicle. Propane is far more volatile that CNG or gasoline and should give an engine back it's normal power. But looking back at the whole thing, and the only area with adequate fill stations was along the I-15 corridor in Utah. The only advantage to propane as far as my experience goes, is the engine oil stays clean for a very long time, and obviously, the engine will last longer. But it does nothing for the rest of the car. Needless to say, I would never outfit any of my own vehicles with a CNG system. 87 Octane here is very cheap anyway at $2.72 this morning at Shell during these ominous stock market times...

[Mike Blakesley]

I don't really care about Tesla one way or the other because I'm enough of a grownup not to let politics influence my purchases. We have a friend who has a Tesla (I think he's on his third one, he's got a lot of money and trades in every year or two) and he loves it. But some of the things they do seem stupid beyond belief. Like the "square" steering wheel mentioned on the first page. WTF is that? I mean, the round wheel works perfectly, why change it just to be different? I would hate to be faced with a difficult driving situation with a "wheel" like that.

The other dopey thing is that Cybertruck. Why would everyone who buys a pickup truck want one that looks exactly like all the other ones? Plus, I'm all for innovation in design, but that's gotta be one of the ugliest things ever manufactured in these United States. But currently I'd probably never buy a Tesla, just because there's the chance some nut would start throwing rocks at it or something.

Back to the current discussion - as a lifelong "house" dweller, I guess I never gave thought to how apartment dwellers would deal with EVs. But I'm sure it won't be long before city building codes start requiring EV charging stations in the parking facilities of new builds and eventually, all apartment parking areas. How else could they deal with it?

[Ryan Gallagher]

Back to the current discussion - as a lifelong "house" dweller, I guess I never gave thought to how apartment dwellers would deal with EVs. But I'm sure it won't be long before city building codes start requiring EV charging stations in the parking facilities of new builds and eventually, all apartment parking areas. How else could they deal with it?

They might eventually, but that only solves new development, and perhaps not even that. Unless cities think of "everything" in the ordinance/law/code... developers are likely to find loopholes or take shortcuts such as ours did, like not providing enough electric service to use more than 6 at a time. Or if they are communal chargers, you are now stuck making extra trips to the garage just to jockey for charging pole position (like others described with hotel garages), unless residents has full control of those spaces and get really organized with time-sharing and charging schedules.

Even commuters who like the concept of minimal driving and Aptera's solar recharge concepts, are stuck looking for a location to park their vehicle in the sun, also not something that typically comes with modern multi-story urban projects. *Maybe* one would be lucky enough to park it in the sun while at work, cause it's really the daylight hours where the benefit would be received.

I think chargers in "high demand" areas are going to have to become smart enough to allow reservations, but yeesh that is another layer of headache.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

In some areas, it's also not that there are not enough chargers, it's that thieves frequently steal them, and their associated wiring to sell for the copper. Then we have charge stations that are running off huge stand alone diesel generators that totally defeat the point of owning an electric car all together. The electricity around here comes from either hydro, or nuclear. Coal burning stations in Tennessee are practically gone. But there is still a lack of charge stations.

Then there are those places that flood a lot. Water, especially salt water, and the 360 volt battery packs of EV's mixing together is a very bad thing... usually resulting in a fire and destruction of the vehicle itself. EV's that get into serious accidents also often end up on fire. Apparently, now Tesla is going to switch to a new 48 volt battery pack to try to make the vehicles safer. Around where I live, the last few days has been a mess because of record rain and flooding in low laying areas. Tennessee and other Eastern States have lots of creeks, and rivers... The Cumberland River is just two miles away from me, but at least I'm 1500 feet above the major roads and highways. When it rains, the water on road ways in some areas is temporarily too deep to pass through, but there are always those that own EV's that think they can get through, but never make it.

As for Tesla, and the Cyber Truck, it's really an awfully incapable off roading vehicle, and there is plenty of video that shows that. Its especially bad on muddy roads and going up or down steep hills, plus you have to deal with all the glued in place body parts that fall off. Oh, that's right... those trucks were 100% recalled because the wrong glue was used.
Then there is their poorly designed self-driving system that utilizes standard CCD cameras to do the "seeing". Well regular ccd color cameras can not 100% see everything in front of them because they are inherently color blind. So other EV manufacturers have taken to using LPR cameras, which see in the UV spectrum to operate their self driving mode. Those vehicles self driving systems are 100 percent safe, while Tesla maintains theirs also works. Yet there has been plenty of people killed, and videos on-line that demonstrate theirs can't see certain things ahead.


At any rate, for me, EV's are just not there yet. All EV makers are working on developing new types of batteries and packs so they can get around the water and fire issues. By the time that happens, there ought to be enough charge station infrastructure to make charging your car super easy snd less costly to do. And as far as the political aspect of that one brand, they are too busy doing other unrelated things and not paying attention to what other brands are offering. China for instance took over sales in that part of the world simply because their EV's are more practical, but not necessarily cheaper to buy. And more and more petrol based car manufactures are constantly introducing new EV's. VW's EV's are made here in Tennessee and have become very popular over night. It's not much different if you are running a single screen theater and all of a sudden a brand new 12 plex opens on the other side of town... In the case of EV's, Tesla simply isn't watching what the other manufacturers closely enough.

[Leo Enticknap]

The other dopey thing is that Cybertruck. Why would everyone who buys a pickup truck want one that looks exactly like all the other ones? Plus, I'm all for innovation in design, but that's gotta be one of the ugliest things ever manufactured in these United States.

In Loma Linda they are nicknamed Raccoon Mobiles, thanks to an incident last fall, in which a homeowner's security camera recorded footage of a raccoon jumping into the truck bed of one, climbing back out about 30 seconds later, and walking away looking somewhat disappointed. The person who uploaded the footage to nextdoor.com speculated that the raccoon believed that the Cybertruck was a dumpster containing food waste.

Back in the early teens when the cost of gas went through the roof, I decided to get into CNG vehicles.

Back in the early '00s (I owned the car from '03 to '07 while living in England), I got into what the Brits call LPG (liquefied petroleum gas), which the rest of the world knows as propane. Regular gasoline vehicles can be converted to use it by installing a tank in the trunk and a new injector mechanism that enables either propane or gasoline to be used as the fuel. I bought the car used, and it cost around a grand (in GBP) more than the equivalent without the conversion would have done. I had recently started a job with a long commute (100 miles round trip), and thought that I'd save a ton of money by being able to use a fuel that was around half the price of gasoline.

There was one station with a LPG pump on my commute route, and I'd fill up there. On other trips, I'd fill up with LPG if I could find somewhere, but the car could run on regular gasoline if I couldn't, so range anxiety wasn't an issue with that setup. However, I found myself having to do that on pretty much every trip that wasn't a regular commute, and the LPG system itself needed an annual planned maintenance visit at around GBP 150 a time. Two other drawbacks were that the LPG/propane tank occupied almost the entire trunk (I called it the mini Hindenburg), and that because of the conversion, I was not allowed to take the car through the Tyne, Rotherhithe, or Channel tunnels, which resulted in three or four lengthy detours a year, and having to do a visit to The Netherlands by air rather than driving, which I'd have preferred.

By the time I sold the car I don't think I made any significant saving, because the reduced cost of the LPG/propane was offset by the higher purchase price of the car itself, the maintenance costs of the LPG system, and not being able to use LPG on many non-commute road trips. I likely just about broke even, and might as well have just had a conventional gasoline-powered car, which is what I did between 2007 and emigrating to the US in 2013.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

By the time I sold the car I don't think I made any significant saving, because the reduced cost of the LPG/propane was offset by the higher purchase price of the car itself, the maintenance costs of the LPG system, and not being able to use LPG on many non-commute road trips. I likely just about broke even, and might as well have just had a conventional gasoline-powered car, which is what I did between 2007 and emigrating to the US in 2013.

To me propane makes way more sense than CNG. Being more volatile than CNG, the engine should run like it's being fed racing gas. As far as return on investment, the CNG system in that van was around 30K. So I kind of doubt that having it would ever pay back... The average price today that I just looked up is $2.26 a gallon at Questar Gas Co in Salt Lake. When I was driving that thing it was just over $1.00 a gallon. Higher in other States and in Southern Utah.

[Josh Jones]

To me propane makes way more sense than CNG. Being more volatile than CNG, the engine should run like it's being fed racing gas. As far as return on investment, the CNG system in that van was around 30K. So I kind of doubt that having it would ever pay back... The average price today that I just looked up is $2.26 a gallon at Questar Gas Co in Salt Lake. When I was driving that thing it was just over $1.00 a gallon. Higher in other States and in Southern Utah.

CNG won based on the availability of factory ready vehicles and available fueling infastructure. Granted, close to 10 years have elapsed since this experience, so you mileage may vary. I was driving 70 miles per day and with tolls was costing almost $500 per month. With a CNG vehicle, my commuting cost was $150. The gas vehicle was a 90's Chevy pickup, and the CNG vehicle a Honda Civic, so you double your mileage right there, but the fuel was also half the cost. Once you understand the limitations, the driving experience was not much different. In my cargo van, I could tow a box trailer. It was a low compression 5.2L dodge-it, so not a great platform as-is. When I ordered my current van, I opted for the CNG ready engine if I decided to go that route again. All of my vehicles were dedicated CNG, so flipping a switch and going back to your stale gasoline was not an option. It was kindof amusing to see how clean the oil was coming out of those engines running only CNG during that time. Very little carbon in the oil.

Josh

[Lyle Romer]

I would think that a lot of the theft at charging stations (and things like street light wiring on highways) could be mitigated by using aluminum instead of copper. Sure it has higher resistance so thicker wires would be needed but it would remove the scrap metal value.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Back in the early teens when the cost of gas went through the roof, I decided to get into CNG vehicles. I had a Honda civic and a large Dodge cargo van, both with CNG fuel systems. The experience of driving and maintaining those things for 5 years seems to mirror a lot of the current EV driving experience. I had route spreadsheets made up with fueling station locations, their distance from one another, contact info, etc. I would call around to all the fuel stops on a long trip to make sure everything was green before I left. If I was going to a place with no refueling stations, I would have to arrange for the vehicle to be trailered at least one way. The range anxiety is real, and with CNG there is always the risk of a station that does not give you a full tank, and then your left without options many times. In the end, it saved me a bunch of money, and it was an interesting engineering experience. I would do it again, but only with much larger fuel capacity. I've gotten kinda used to getting over 400 miles between stops, and neither of my old vehicles would do much over 200 miles.

Josh

So I take it your cars couldn't switch over to gasoline? Having that is the key to owning CNG as an option IMHO. I felt the CNG tank in the truck I was driving was too large, as it took up a third of the back end. The truck I drove was not a standard cargo van, it was pretty close to this one in the image... Way overkill IMHO... but I wasn't the one that bought it.

[Ryan Gallagher]

I would think that a lot of the theft at charging stations (and things like street light wiring on highways) could be mitigated by using aluminum instead of copper. Sure it has higher resistance so thicker wires would be needed but it would remove the scrap metal value.

Seems like this is something they should have considered in design and implementation in certain economic zones (the entire US). A non-physical/design approach would be to just offer slightly discounted energy prices at times of day when that kind of theft is most likely... encourage people to use the station to make sure people are around, particularly at the stations that are not attached to any other services and have zero personnel. It kinda depends on who is shouldering the cost of such repairs when it happens though.

Rapid charge cables and adapters get quite hot already, I'm not sure they could go aluminum and still have the cable be manageable, though it would weigh less. I watched a EV cross country race with consumer vehicles on youtube. They resorted to iced damp towels to on cables and connectors to boost their charge rates (presumably after they realized thermal regulation was involved, especially in warm climates).

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I would think that a lot of the theft at charging stations (and things like street light wiring on highways) could be mitigated by using aluminum instead of copper. Sure it has higher resistance so thicker wires would be needed but it would remove the scrap metal value.

You'd be very surprised at the per pound price of Aluminum. I remember going to the scrap yard with a good customer and we took a dozen Christie platters. He got almost 2 grand for the decks and something like 7 cents a pound for all the steel stuff. Also, with wire, either copper, or aluminum, it has to be stripped to get top dollar for it. Thieves will get more for copper, but to them, it is worth taking the aluminum as well.

[Leo Enticknap]

Without wanting to get too far into politics, I suspect that the street price of black market aluminum is about to get a lot higher, in the short term at any rate.

A non-physical/design approach would be to just offer slightly discounted energy prices at times of day when that kind of theft is most likely... encourage people to use the station to make sure people are around, particularly at the stations that are not attached to any other services and have zero personnel.

Sometimes the psychological approach works best. Same principle whereby in skeezy neighborhoods, you'll sometimes hear classical music being played loudly through speakers at the entrance to gas station and other convenience stores, in order to discourage the local meth heads from congregating there and driving customers away.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Without wanting to get too far into politics, I suspect that the street price of black market aluminum is about to get a lot higher, in the short term at any rate.



Sometimes the psychological approach works best. Same principle whereby in skeezy neighborhoods, you'll sometimes hear classical music being played loudly through speakers at the entrance to gas station and other convenience stores, in order to discourage the local meth heads from congregating there and driving customers away.

A notorious downtown whataburger joint here in Austin did that for a while, all opera and ballet suites. The irony is that whataburger is directly across from the Opera and Ballet performing arts center!!! LOL

[Lyle Romer]

Sometimes the psychological approach works best. Same principle whereby in skeezy neighborhoods, you'll sometimes hear classical music being played loudly through speakers at the entrance to gas station and other convenience stores, in order to discourage the local meth heads from congregating there and driving customers away.

Very bright lighting can also help "scatter the roaches" so to speak. I'd imagine that the reason a lot of gas stations have unnecessarily bright lighting is for this reason. You are sticking a nozzle into a fill hole, not soldering surface mount components. Workbench brightness is not required.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Very bright lighting can also help "scatter the roaches" so to speak. I'd imagine that the reason a lot of gas stations have unnecessarily bright lighting is for this reason. You are sticking a nozzle into a fill hole, not soldering surface mount components. Workbench brightness is not required.

You would think so, but I guess you've never been to Nevada. Towns are sometimes a hundred miles apart in some places. And a few charge stations run on diesel generators because getting power to those locations would be very expensive.