Avatar 2 and the plethora of formats

[Steve Guttag]

So, how are you all handling all of the 1000s of permutations of Avatar 2? I'm amazed that, by now, there hasn't been a strong campaign to get theatres tested to know which formats of the many, many, many that will be available (and are now showing up on the DCDC catch servers).

There are:

• 2D/3D
• 24fps/48fps (note, the 48fps version will be 48 fps all of the way through though 24fps and 48fps will be used based on scene and effect...for the 24fps scenes, the frames will just be double-flashed).
• 4fL/6fL (for the 3D people...there is probably a 14fL version or a "Vision" version, one would think with HDR too).
• 2K/4K (for the HFR people running 2D)
• Flat/Scope (just for the 3D people...Flat for common width screens, Scope for common height screens).
• 5.1/7.1/IAB (Atmos and Atmos wannabes)
• CCAP/OCAP (I don't know how many of the above versions will have an OCAP but CCAP will be on every permutation above).

Think about all of the permutations you can get into with that list! The soundtracks will be version files but they are still separate "CPLs." How well have all of these versions been tested on the various combinations of equipment?

DCI requirements, from the get-go, required 2K (2D) at 24 and 48fps. That said, the 48fps was more theoretical, back then. The exact right formatting was required to for it work. I know, during the Ang Lee disasters, we ended up testing Dolby DSS200 servers at 2D/60fps (which was all for not because they didn't release it in that form). But, at least they had tests well in advance to ensure that things would work (and we could develop settings that would work).

I know that Barco S4 projectors, with the latest release of 1.7.1 has 4K/60 working (2D) and Dolby, for the IMS3000 running 3.5.13 has 4K/60 working...I'm guessing that means it should work with 2D/4K/48? Has this all been tested? Any gotchas? The SR1000 specs show they are good with 2K/2D/48. Most IMB based systems have the ability to handle up to 2K/3D/60 (some needing a license).

I wish everyone calm seas when this movie opens. I do hope it brings massive crowds (and I, privately, hope that the 2D far out grosses the 3D).

[Jon Dent]

Scope
2k
24fps
2D
7.1

Outside of having 7.1 we're about as low tech as it gets, spec wise.

Just gotta find that one in the mile long list on the server....

EDIT: Well shit, ours were the first two entries listed on the ingest scan. Sweet. I noticed they're attaching a version number to the end of the ISDCF name. Think that's the first time I've seen that and maybe it's insurance against having to issue fixed ones at some point....

[Jim Cassedy]

I, privately, hope that the 2D far out grosses the 3D).

It will at the theater I'm working at- - We're not running any 3D shows. This came as a complete
surprise to me when my of my friends sent me an e-mail asking why we had no 3D shows posted
on our website. When I asked management, the answer that I was given was that 'the studio'
contract required a certain number of 3D shows per day over a certain period of days, and
that due to other shows & private events we already had commitments for, it was impossible
for us to meet the conditions the studio wanted.

I'd noticed that all the assorted format versions Steve mentions had shown up on our satellite
serverthingy on Wed or Thurs, and then,on Friday morning we also got the flick delivered to
us on a hard-drive, which, contained only the 2D version at 24 & 48fps. ( 5.1 & 7.1 sound)

I know we can do 2D @48fps, because I had done testing several months ago. My plan is
to at least run it in 2D/48, since we won't be doing 3D. I told my fellow projection elves not
to spend time ingesting ANY of the Avatar content, until I see what they are going to send
KDM's for. Last time I checked the Deluxe web portal, there there wasn't even a KDM order
showing up yet. So until I know what they're sending keys for, I'm not ingesting anything.

[Mike Blakesley]

We did decide to go with the 3D, with the rationale:

- Our neighboring theater down the road doesn't have 3D
- Almost every single person who has asked me when we're getting the movie follows up that question with "Is it going to be in 3-D?" and they're all very happy when I say yes
- It's James Cameron, and if he can't do 3D right, nobody can
- If it starts to peter out, and they refuse to let us show some 2D shows, we'll have a nice relaxing week or 10 days (and maybe even an off night or two)
- No point in having thousands of dollars worth of 3D equipment sitting there never getting used

Having said all that, I would sorta be OK if the 3D sorta tanks and we can all just go back to regular projection for the rest of our lives.

[Steve Guttag]

Scope
2k
24fps
2D
7.1

Outside of having 7.1 we're about as low tech as it gets, spec wise.

Check again, Jon. That combination does not exist, to the best of my knowledge. That will be a 4K version. Your player and projector will extract the 2K information from the 4K file. The only ones in the 2D world that get a 2K option are the 48fps people.

So, Mike, which adventure did you choose for your 3D? You have Flat/Scope as well as 24/48 fps (and 4fL/6fL on the light). Plus the sound variations. If you do go with 48fps (and I would, at least give it a try), you'll need to set up a separate 3D file for it and time your color wheel for 48fps double/flash, if it hasn't been configured already.

Back when the various HFR things came out (including The Hobbit, I made 3D framing/sync test DCPs at the various frame rates: 25, 30, 48 and 60 and just set up all of our 3D capable sites for all of them...just in case (kind of like setting all common-height screen theatres to be able to deal with F-200 and F-220 when Jurassic World and Tomorrowland descended on the industry, once summer). An advantage of the Barco/Dolby 3D version is that one can have as many 3D configuration files as needed. Such is not the case with the Dolby DFC100 where it just knows a handful of frequencies so the frame rate is presumed based on the frequency it receives. 30fps and 60fps share a common multiplier but Dolby stopped DFC100 development. If it would recognize 90Hz, then 30fps triple flash would be unique. It does recognize 75Hz and is labeled 30fps with 5:2 flash...a mode that S2 projectors dropped. However, one could repurpose that for 25fps triple flash. So, with a DFC100, you can have either 60fps single flash (2:2) or 30fps double flash (4:2). Fortunately, 3D is not all that common anymore (and, hopefully, Avatar 2 won't change that dynamic too much).

In any event, if you do Avatar 2 in 48fps, you'll need to have a 3D file for it with a 4:2 flash rate (96Hz). If you have any 3D trailers in 24fps, you'll need to change your 3D file before the feature starts and give the wheel time to react and come up to speed.

Oh, and those of you with DSS200s and planning on running the HFR versions with Open Captions, you'll need to update your server's software or the open captions will blast by at double the speed and be done in half the time (kind of a speed-reading). This does not affect the Closed Captions.

[Jon Dent]

Check again, Jon. That combination does not exist, to the best of my knowledge. That will be a 4K version. Your player and projector will extract the 2K information from the 4K file. The only ones in the 2D world that get a 2K option are the 48fps people.

I know. I was listing how we were running it. Probably just didn't write good English that late in the evening.

I'm curious to see the split between 3D and 2D as well. A lot of 3D capable multiplexes have closed in the last few years, and that has to drop the screen count a pretty decent amount.

[James Gardiner]

Early presales in my markets are predominantly 3D screening (As I would expect.) I don't think it will do too well in 2D as it's too long and people will decide to wait for the Streaming, can pause, version with an expectation of only 45 days for it to arrive.

(And they wonder why attendance levels are in the toilet.)

[Mike Blakesley]

So, Mike, which adventure did you choose for your 3D?

Well, the one I downloaded was the plain vanilla 24fps 4FL Scope 5.1 version. But now that you mention it, it would be fun to try the 48 fps version out. I don't know if that's something our tech can set up from afar but I'll ask him. I know our equipment has the capability at least.

However we don't have the 48fps version on our server... apparently those versions are being sent out via hard drive. We got a total of 15 versions on our server, counting the 2D ones. They are all 24fps.

[Steve Guttag]

Your tech can do "most" of it from afar. What s/he can't do is adjust the filter wheel to get the timing right. That has to be done local.

You don't have 7.1?

[Jim Cassedy]

Given the fact that the venue I'm at will not be running Avatar-2 in 3D, due to studio contract restrictions
that I stated in an earlier message, I'm now trying to decide if I should run the 24 or 48fps version. Is there
any advantage/disadvantage to doing the 48? I know some people think that a conventional (live action)
movie @48fps winds up looking "unreal" or looking too much like a soap opera. - - But obviously this
wouldn't be a problem with Avatar. My system is a pair of stacked SONY projectors- - so it's really
unfortunate we won't be playing a 3D version, since the dual-projector 3D is image is superb,
But whaddya think~ ~ 48 or 24?

EDIT: > RESOLVED! I'll be running the 2D/48fps version here. (But it's a dual projector system,
so, technically, that's actually 96fps, no?)

[Mike Blakesley]

You don't have 7.1?

We don't -- we considered it very briefly when we built our baffle wall but since the screen is only 30', it didn't really seem like it would be worth the expense.

[Jim Cassedy]

"but since the screen is only 30'. "

Hey, Mike- I'm just curious: Do you mean your screen is only 30' wide, or that you only have a 30' throw from the projector?

[Steve Guttag]

Mike, what does 7.1 have to do wit screen width? 7.1 breaks the surrounds into 4 channels and has zero effect on screen channels or screen width. It merely adds a depth to the surrounds.

[Carsten Kurz]

Cinionic just issued a document concerning settings and recent software updates that should fix some issues with AVATAR 2. Referring also to a software update that is due to a be released on dec. 19th.

https://go.cinionic.com/AvatarGuidelines

[Steve Guttag]

I don't know what secret sauce is in the new input files. But I did use them and also changed the resize so that it is full imager and that allowed the IMS3000 to operate up to 4K/60. Oddly, Disney would only supply "Flat" versions of the 4K/48 test content and the theatre has a 2.39:1 screen...so Scope content would have been preferred.