Progressive performance degradation - Barco DP2k-32B

[Jack Ondracek]

I have a Barco 32B that has run pretty hard over the years. We keep it clean and cool, but, other than lamp changes, not much else. I also have a couple of 23Bs on smaller screens, but they've been fine.

This screen is 43X86 and the picture, while adequate with new lamps, isn't what I'd call outstanding.

Looking at my lamp logs over the past 4 or 5 years, I notice that I have to start a new lamp at slight, but progressively higher current levels to match the lumen level I have programmed into it. Accordingly, I start to notice more difficulty with darker films, well before I hit warranty on the lamps. CLO levels are higher and hit the top sooner than expected.

I've used several brands of lamp, finally settling on the more-expensive, but better-overall (imo) Ushio. Still, life and performance hasn't been drastically different among those brands.

So now, after 13 years of service, I'm being told that not only the reflector, but all of the other components in the light path, short of the chip itself, degrade over time. I had not heard of this before last week.

Does this sound reasonable or fishy?
Expensive fix, or time to budget for Laser?

[James Gardiner]

I hear that these larger projectors, needing significant air flow over them to keep them cool, commonly results in degraded light engines due to particulates being dragged into them at a higher level than other projectors. Its not specific to any brand, more the use.

For example, drive ins have a particularly difficult time as.. Cars running engines around them, and then the projector pulling in the air the cars exhaust into... is a especially difficult issue.

[Jim Cassedy]

Even < I've > degraded somewhat over the past 13 years.
Some people even tell me I'm not as bright as I used to be.

[Leo Enticknap]

The prism in the light engine starts to absorb light over time, too. When a drive-in I service bought the Appotronics laser retrofit for their DP2K-32Bs in 2021, the deal struck included light engine swapouts with refurbished ones, for that reason.

You don't say what size of lamp you're using, but with that screen size, I'm guessing 4.5kW.

Expensive fix, or time to budget for Laser?

If by "budget for laser" you mean a retrofit for the existing projector, then I'm not sure how sensible that would be for a projector with 13 years on the clock. If you do go that route, I would definitely factor in a new (or at least, refurbished) light engine as well. If it's feasible, I would advocate an entire new projector. You would save a significant amount on power and lamps, though whether that would be enough to cover the annual depreciation cost (cost of ownership) or a retrofit or new projector is a more difficult question.

[Marco Giustini]

That’s correct.
it is wise to over spec a projector by at least 50% for that very reason. Do you remember what the lamp power was set to when the projector was first installed to hit 14fL?

one question: do you have a light meter? CLO will drift over time for the same exact reason and needs periodic recalibration : everything degrades but CLO is a light sensor installed on the light path. It cannot predict what happens in the engine and on your screen.

have you had the lens removed and the inner end cleaned, and also the prism exit? Barco filtering is a joke and those parts will get coated in dust.

a new reflector might be all you need, I’m hearing it’s the most affected part.

also don’t forget the screen. They also degrade over time.

finally yes, more light (bigger lamps), more degradation. So I’m not surprised a 32B with a 7K degrades faster than a 23B with a 4K in it.

[Steve Guttag]

Reflectors, for sure, degrade over time. They are deceptive because they look "good as new" but losing 30% or more light before it even leaves the lamphouse/lamp area is not uncommon. It is not brand specific either and even your film projectors suffered from it, back in the day. The bigger the lamp, the faster the decay though even on small systems, you definitely lose light on the reflector.

The optical path can normally be cleaned (lenses/light pipe) and I've seen that bring back 20% light. On a Barco, don't forget that cold mirror...it gets hammered. I don't have as good a statistic on the fold mirror inside the light pipe area but I'm sure it decays too but I'm also sure not as much as the cold mirror and the lamphouse reflectors.

When the whole laser-conversion thing was in motion...I could never make the numbers work for 2KW and smaller systems...but as you moved into bigger and bigger lamps, especially 4-6.5KW lamps, laser conversion made more a more sense. The 6KW lamp is expensive to buy, expensive to run (not only does it consume a lot of electricity, it has a lot of cooling that gets pumped outside that has to be made up too) and it is short lived! As one moves up in lamp size, the cost of running xenon moves up exponentially. Then factor in that xenon makes nice light but it also makes detrimental non-visible light (UV/IR) too. Ideally, if done in year 6 or 7 of the projector's life, you'll get another 6-7 years, minimum out of the upgraded projector.

A reflector set isn't cheap but it is a LOT cheaper than a new projector. Likewise, a light engine swap for just cleaning isn't cheap, but it is a LOT cheaper than a new projector...even the cost of both are a lot cheaper than a new projector.

Depending on your budget, I'd look into a new reflector set, possibly a cold mirror and try to clean the optics (depending on vintage is how much one can get into the light pipe on the "B" series). You might also want to price out the swap price for a clean light engine. It will be like having a new projector, light wise. It won't help with the content, but at least the content will be brighter.

[Ryan Gallagher]

If it hasn't been done in a while I would 2nd the idea of having the brightness measured off the screen using professional tools. If you are below 14fL now and no room to increase in the output power it is time to consider all the mentioned options. I'm more familiar with christie but you might be able to hit 14fL again for a time if you disable the brightness management routine and go with a manual value for lamp power, but it may just accelerate the problems you are experiencing. Band-aid for sure.

[Leo Enticknap]

Barco filtering is a joke and those parts will get coated in dust.

I wouldn't go as far as a joke, but those wire mesh filters certainly don't last the life of the projector, and if they're not replaced when the time comes, the interior of the chassis will suffer. I've found that after around 5-7 years they become impossible to clean totally, and after about 9-10, small holes and tears will start to appear. By this point, the pressure difference is such that dust has started to find a way around them, and maintenance C becomes a major project. Ideally, replacing the air filters (or at the very least, the card cage filter, which takes the most abuse) should be a maintenance D item.

A reflector set isn't cheap but it is a LOT cheaper than a new projector. Likewise, a light engine swap for just cleaning isn't cheap, but it is a LOT cheaper than a new projector...even the cost of both are a lot cheaper than a new projector.

But cheaper than a laser retrofit? As you point out, if the projector is using 4.5kW or bigger lamps, the math starts to become debatable. But there is also an element of gambling when the projector in question is as old as 13 years. If, after sinking serious money into it, you get another, say, five years of trouble free life, the gamble stands a chance of paying off. But if you need a new ICP or lens holder six months later...

Maybe a good first step for Jack would be to get ballpark numbers from a couple of Barco dealers for three options: replace the optical components in the existing projector, laser retrofit, and a new projector?

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'd say that after 13 years, you should be ready to replace the machine. I would not sink in the money for a laser upgrade into a 13 year old machine with visible performance issues. It's still a good machine for spares or to keep on-site as an emergency backup if another machine fails.

Unfortunately, many theaters are nowhere in the position to replace their aging digital machines. Combined with the current market and the not so spectacular outlooks in the near future, I expect many theaters to either downsize their screen-counts or outright throw in the ring in the towel once something major happens to their projectors.

[Steve Guttag]

Leo...the light engine cleaning benefit would be the same...laser or lamp. Reflectors are a LOT cheaper than a laser retrofit (both in materials and in reflector). Will those replacement reflectors make to the end of the useful life of the projector? Probably.

As for new projector...if you are into a 32B...you are in the 35,000lm range...so you are heading into 6-figures for a new laser projector. Yeah, it is a lot cheaper for reflectors and even a light engine repair.

Laser retrofit may very well make sense...even knowing that you might need a light engine repair in the next year or two.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Laser retrofit may very well make sense...even knowing that you might need a light engine repair in the next year or two.

Last time I checked for our own DP4K-23B, a laser retrofit was only possible if the machine was still under (extended) support, or else there would be essentially no warranty on the result of the upgrade. It was possible to extend the total support of the entire hardware/light engine/laser source combo up to 13 years.

So, under those conditions, you would not even get any extended support on your light source, besides the standard one or two year base warranty, if the machine was out of support. I'd say that's quite a risk, given the considerable investment into the new light source.

[Leo Enticknap]

Last time I checked for our own DP4K-23B, a laser retrofit was only possible if the machine was still under (extended) support, or else there would be essentially no warranty on the result of the upgrade.

The post-conversion warranty would cover the retrofit components (light source unit, laser power supplies, and chiller), but nothing else. The main risks after that would be the light engine (five figures to replace), ICP, IMB/IMS, CCB, and lens holder (all four figures). We know that Barco CCBs do have quite a high failure rate, especially the earlier hardware variant, and ICP certificate battery failure is a significant risk for a 13-year old projector, unless, possibly, if it's been powered up 24/7 for most of that time.

[Marco Giustini]

I’d start with having the machine cleaned (all optics, mirrors etc), colours done and brightness measured.

I’d the outcome is not too bad, say 12fL, you might want to explore some new parts which might give you back 14fL and some headroom.

I’d you’re below 12fL, then even swapping parts will probably end you up with a below-standard projection with the lamp running at 100%.

(12fL is what my guts suggests, not a mathematical certainty. )

Leo,
those filters are nowhere near what Hepa filters would achieve. If filters worked, you wouldn’t find dust on optics internally.
And yes those filters won’t last forever but I found that washing them with soapy water usually get them back to a good shape?

[Steve Guttag]

With respect to filters, Barco, when they went to cleanable filters (S2)...yeah they do nothing for fine dust. They keep moderate rocks out. When I perform a maintenance visit, if the end user isn't keeping the filters clean (hold up to light, they should appear to be nearly invisible in the filter area, I'll sell a new set as it costs more for me to clean them. However, since turning our clients onto Arm and Hammer's Super Washing Soda (and hot water), they do a pretty good job at keeping them clean. What would probably benefit Barco projectors is to put some velcro squares on the outside of the louvers and stick some white air register filters to cover the openings. That would catch most of the dust. And don't forget the Lamp Power Supply inlets (across the belly of the "C" projectors and where the power is connected on "B" projectors (need to remove the rear cover to see the impacted bug screen).

[Jack Ondracek]

Appreciate the comments here.

A couple of details that were asked about:

This is a 3-screen drive-in... one '32B', running 6500 watt lamps and two '23B's, running 4k. Compared to an indoor house, these things don't accumulate the hours nearly as fast, and they're powered all the way down at the end of the evening.

Typical drive-in screens... about what you'd expect. Corrugated metal surfaces with the whitest flat paint I can get.

Lens holders haven't had a wear problem, as I rarely remove the lenses. My room is sealed, so things stay clean and don't get very dusty. I dump the heat load from all 3 machines into the booth and pull the heat back out with commercial Mitsubishi split ACs... Filters are checked regularly, but don't require a lot of attention.

My comment about considering laser should have noted I was looking at a replacement projector, mainly to get into a model with higher light output. Nobody has seemed enthusiastic about upgrading an existing 32B, and I'm fine with the ongoing cost of 4k bulbs for my other machines.

My Barcos have been reliable workhorses here. Well, other than having lost an IMB for unknown reasons this year. That one hurt, and now I have an IMS3000 along with my 2 remaining Showvaults.

My maintenance company supports the cleaning & reflector approach. I'll probably go down that road first.

Thanks again!