DCP-O-MATIC and server change

[Dave Macaulay]

A client converted some video- I believe from YouTube - to DCP a few months ago, to show before every feature. It played fine on a Doremi ShowVault/IMB and Barco S2 system but they just installed a Barco SP2K laser with ICMP-X. Ingested the clip from the Doremi and it played, but colour completely screwy. Changing to the YCbCr PCF got the right colours.
So ignoring "how did the Doremi play it" (don't care), is there a way to force DCP-O-MATIC to use XYZ colour space when doing a DCP?

[Allan Barnes]

Hi Dave

Sorry, your client must re-do his DCP from his source material. Yes, DCP-O-MATIC allows to select colour space. If you "donate" to the nice DCP people will help you quickly. If you don't donate it takes longer. And always test the results before showing your "work" on public. TO BE CLEAR.... the DCP-O-MATIC people are always nice and helpful and Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

[Ioannis Syrogiannis]

DCP-o-matic is exporting to XYZ by default. In most cases from an automatic choice on the source color space and gamma, but that choice can be changed from the user. The DCP-o-matic Player is screening on your computer how it should look on screen (XYZ to the relevant colorspace). I use it a lot, to check, before I check on-screen. I encourage everyone who makes DCPs to do so.
When you write that you don't care how did the Doremi played it, gives the impression that you don't care to troubleshoot, but you just want to know how to force XYZ.
So, I hope the above helps.

[...]
If you "donate" the nice DCP people will help you quickly. If you don't donate it takes longer. And always test the results before showing your "work" on public.

It's a bit unclear, the way you put it. "...the nice DCP people...".
In regards to donation, inside or outside quote-marks, we do not share the same experience.

[Mike Blakesley]

If you "donate" the nice DCP people will help you quickly. If you don't donate it takes longer.

That hasn't been my experience. I used DCP-O-Matic for a while before donating, had lots of questions and always got quick answers. Since then I've donated a time or two, but certainly not a big amount or on the regular, but I've still had excellent help from the powers that be.

I'd think you would want to make a contribution for software that is clearly well-made and so useful.

[Dave Macaulay]

The S2 Barco, ShowVault, and IMB are gone, removed, byebye, smell ya later. So - very seriously - it doesn't matter to me how they played this clip with good colour with that system. I have to deal with now.

From the ICMP-X and SP2K it looks something like 2D played in 3D on a dual SDI system. Switching the ICMP-X to its YCbCr PCF gets the colour looking fairly right. I don't think a PCF swap cue before and after the clip is a great idea.

I think it's reasonable to ask, for our client not me (I don't make DCPs from YouTube stuff but he does, and others he made are OK), if there's a D-O-M configuration setting that he may have missed that forces DCPs from it to be in XYZ colour space.

Just trying to help him. He will try to get something made before the first show with the new SP2K on Friday. If anyone has tips I will pass them on.

The particular clip is the National Anthem, they play it before every show (kinda nice!). Video of patriotic sites and flags waving and the music track playing. He says everyone usually stands for it.

Not great in negative (or whatever) colour.

[Ioannis Syrogiannis]

What you describe, in terms of colour, Dave, could be "two hands" of Bt.709->XYZ being applied. Like too much magenta, or too much light green, etc. Since we don't have the original video or DCP, you could say it doesn't matter what went wrong. The sure thing is that for a DCP made on DCP-o-matic to show weird colored, something went wrong on the input, not output settings (as they are always the same). So, Allan's suggestion to re-do is the best bet and therefore, best tip you can offer.

When making a DCP on DCP-o-matic, one may check the image on the monitor. After making a DCP on DCP-o-matic, one can check the image on DCP-o-matic Player. I can vouch for the versions I used and I am using (the latest is what I currently use), that what you check on your computer monitor is fairly close/seemingly to what you watch on-screen. I write "fairly close/seemingly" because on a colorist's eyes, there might be something that is off, but not on mine, or most.
What I mean by that, is that there are controls to use, in order to make sure that the DCP is as it should be. The second best tip, would to make sure, the client, that they use one of the latest DCP-o-matic versions and that they check on the monitor the result.

I highly recommend the DCP-o-matic forum, where I have often received good advice and on some occasions I shared my experience. There is no guarantee to a fast response, there is no support team on the clock, pretty much people who like being part of the community, same as in here.

Now, off-topic, I often don't know how to interpret writings on internet, because there is no way to picture the manner that someone would use, if they spoke the same lines live. What you write, same as what I write, or anyone here, could be meant in so many different ways. Therefore I go by my limited impression of you, which is that you are a sincerely helpful person that, on the other hand, isn't here to add unnecessary head-aches on his head. The answer that I would give to your question remains the same I gave before.
My guess is that you try to help your customer based on his interpretation of the facts and reasoning, but some things don't add up. On your first post, before I finish reading it, I was under the impression that the ICMP-X was using (for instance) the "DCDM_XYZ_185" instead of the "DCDM_XYZ_auto" PCF and that would cause issues, because Barco decided not to address the problems that come up when not using the "..._auto" preset. But, that, wouldn't be missed on regular/other/test content as well. So, the DCP made is the most reasonable culprit. But, if it is, then it should have been in the past as well.
So, that situation probably causes complaints from the customer. It's unfair that you have to deal with the matter now (or whenever), but customers tend to not care if their DIY solutions turn out to not work with the equipment they bought.

No, this is not me psychoanalyzing you or your customer. I am merely whining about past experiences.

[Carsten Kurz]

Can you check the frame rate of this DCP? This may be caused by a weird combination of frame rate vs. Doremi high frame rate /3D side effects. Maybe they tweaked the DCP so that it would play with proper colors on a Doremi, but actually used wrong color correction instead of adjusting the frame rate to get it right.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Plenty of advice here already. But since you are just relaying for a client. I say the most direct path is to instruct them check for and install DOM updates, to re-make that one problematic DCP from the source in a NEW project file, using whatever method they used to use, and report back to you/here or in DOM forums if the remake still has color problems. It *should* auto-detect most things and do it mostly correctly by default.

A youtube capture/rip should be rec.709, and DOM should detect that and configure itself for the rec.709->XYZ needs of that file.

[Ryan Gallagher]

If by chance the source of that DCP no longer is gettable, they can export a muxed video file using DOM too, by adding the original DCP to a project and choosing Jobs->Export Video File.

This won't isolate the problem though, it might inherit the problem. But if the colors look correct in the exported video file, they "should" be good to start from that.

More directly they could make a new DCP using the old one as the starting point, but considering what they are trying to troubleshoot perhaps best to avoid that.

On a strickly fact finding front, if they put their "bad" DCP into DOM-Player for QC, and the colors look vastly more correct than when played on the server, that might point to something in the configuration on the SP2K instead?

[Carl Hetherington]

If you "donate" to the nice DCP people will help you quickly. If you don't donate it takes longer

I can assure you that I am no way near organised enough to prioritise support based on who has donated or not. I and several others (most of whom have already offered suggestions on this thread) try to help where and when we can. This is a largely volunteer enterprise run on approximately half a German minimum wage. I don't know what you are implying by putting "donate" in quotation marks but on the whole I find it unhelpful.

[Carl Hetherington]

Is there a way to force DCP-O-MATIC to use XYZ colour space when doing a DCP?

This should always happen, unless there is a dramatic bug I am not aware of. If your client can make their DCP available somewhere we can investigate.

It would be interesting to know what happens if they make a new DCP with DCP-o-matic and run it on their new projection system.

[Carsten Kurz]

We would like to see how this DCP made from a YouTube Clip displays in DCP-o-matic player. The player will naturally also display resolution and frame rate. My guess is that it is 60 or 30 fps. Whereas 30fps shouldn't be a problem, but 60 fps is usually interpreted as 3D on a classic Doremi. And then the colours may come out wrong.

[Ryan Gallagher]

We would like to see how this DCP made from a YouTube Clip displays in DCP-o-matic player. The player will naturally also display resolution and frame rate. My guess is that it is 60 or 30 fps. Whereas 30fps shouldn't be a problem, but 60 fps is usually interpreted as 3D on a classic Doremi. And then the colours may come out wrong.

You might be mixing his OP statements? He said Doremi had zero problems with the original, it is the ICMP-X that is rendering them with color issues. But yeah, knowing the DOM settings used, and/or sharing the DCP for Carl to look at would be ideal way to investigate.

[Carsten Kurz]

They may have created the DCP so that it plays ok on the Doremi at 60fps. Probably omitting the X'Y'Z' conversion (which is possible in DCP-o-matic, depending on how you applied the color conversion settings). That way, this DCP would only play with correct colors on a Doremi. I have seen that happening often with YouTiube conversions that kept the original 60fps frame rate for the DCP. Not only the ICMP-X, ALL other servers would play this with false colors. Including DCP-o-matic player, as all players have to assume the content underwent a proper X'Y'Z' conversion. My only experience is with the classic ICMP, not with the ICMP-X - but if a YCbCr PCF is needed to get proper colors, the problem is most likely with the specific DCPs conversion parameters. Or, something on that new projector or ICMP-X is screwed.

[Ioannis Syrogiannis]

[...]Probably omitting the X'Y'Z' conversion (which is possible in DCP-o-matic, depending on how you applied the color conversion settings).[...]

How do you mean, that, Carsten, by changing the "Colour" setting from -say- "Rec. 709" to "None"?
I was under the impression that DCP-o-matic drops every other frame on 50fps or 60fps by default, and one needs to check "Allow any DCP frame rate" on non-standard preferences, to circumvent that. But, to be honest, I never experimented with that.