DCP-O-MATIC & PRO-RES 4444 HD

[Jim Cassedy]

A client has sent me a file that's named : English-Texted_HD_PR4444_5.1.mov.
It is definitely a pre-res file and the download looks OK.
CAN DCP-O-MATIC convert this to DCP?
It''s not accepting the file when I try to open it in DCP-O-Matic
I've got version 2.16.15, which may not be the newest, but it is running on a fairly
'clean' I-Mac with current OS.
Ideas?

[Carsten Kurz]

I would suggest going towards 2.16.99 (latest stable 2.16). DCP-o-matic is able to read PRO-RES 4444, but with some limitations (e.g. there is 'sort of' a bug when the file includes alpha - which normally should not be the case with a proper 'Master' deserving the name, but we all know what filmmakers are capable of when it comes to creating fancy files).

When you add the file to DCP-o-matic - DCP-o-matic writes a file called 'ffprobe.log' to it's project directory - can you post the lines dealing with this *.mov file here? This will give some indication how ffmpeg/libav is dealing with the file.


2.16.99 is here, it's a safe update to 2.16.15: https://dcpomatic.com/old-downloads

Also, both on Macs and in Windows, it is usually no problem to have multiple versions installed at the same time - you just need to place them into individual folders, or rename the standard install folder with the version number (e.g. DCP-o-matic_2_16_99) . All DCP-o-matic binaries are fully self contained, they don't share any libraries when running.

Jim, you are an experienced DCP-o-matic user, so I don't assume you tried to open this file with DCP-o-matic's 'File'-> 'Open' Option in the file menu (as many beginners do), but by using 'Add file(s)...' under the 'Content' tab?

[Carl Hetherington]

There are quite a lot of sub-profiles with ProRes so it's hard to always be sure, but I'd be surprised if it couldn't be made to work. What happens when you try to open it?

[Randy Stankey]

I believe it can if your computer has the right codecs for ProRes. I edit in ProRes all the time but publish to HEVC when I want to put it on the internet or to plain, old H.264/MP4 for other jobs. (Bitrates, keyframes and other things will need to be adjusted for your target output.)

The only time I leave projects in ProRes is when I'm sending them for broadcast. Even then, I check with the person on the receiving end, before and after sending, to be sure things work as planned.

Then, again, I just got a fancy, new Studio Mac. It does, in minutes, what my old computer could do in hours. I've, yet, to throw something at it that couldn't be handled in one way or another. Sometimes, Quicktime won't handle some content, directly. In that case, putting it through the Compressor app will get it into something that QT will play. VLC is almost always a backup. I haven't had a video, so far, that QT, Final Cut, Compressor or VLC couldn't handle.

I haven't done any DCPs on the Studio Mac, yet, but the old, Mac Pro never had a problem, once I got the codecs installed. It just took a long time... like a single-digit number of frames per second. I would expect the new computer to do the same work almost in real-time.

With that said, I think that, if our computer can play, edit and save content to ProRes, DCP-O-Matic should be able to handle it.

[Carsten Kurz]

DCP-o-matic does not use any system codecs, it contains it's own codec library.

[Jim Cassedy]

Quick Update:
THANKS For all the advice. I may have actually had an issue here on my end.
Unfortunately I'm up against the clock & I need to head to work.
In worst case, I've found someone who has already DCP'd the file I'm trying to
deal with. He's going to upload it to his Google Drive folder and share it with me.
But THANKS just the same!

[Ryan Gallagher]

You are giving me flashbacks to my last 3 days Jim. Stop! lol

Whatever you do, don't playout that 4k or 2k ProRes file in OBS (Media Object), especially if it is a feature... it will seem fine, but the audio will be subject to drifting out of sync on monitor output, and the OBS built in sync correction features don't apply to monitor out. Learned that one the hard way recently when their DCP was crap and no time to fix. OBS was driving the rest of the festival non-film content, so it was the easy pivot, but bad result.

I would suggest in lieu of pro playback options like Playback Pro or Mitti, best performance would probably be either VLC on PC, or native Apple Quicktime Media Player on a mac if such things come up. I've not tried the VLC object within OBS to see... but alas I don't have that source file anymore. There is also an "Audio Monitor" plugin that makes the source audio routable, not unlike program, but other than learning how to use it, I haven't tried it in a show context.

Time permitting, transcoding the Prores to something else would probably also be safer for most consumer playback software.

[Jim Cassedy]

UPDATE: Well, as I mentioned in my original follow-up post, I found a slight file-size
discrepancy between my download, and what DropBox said it should be. I was able
to repair that, and DCP-O-MATIC then recognized the file. But I didn't have time to
deal with starting a conversion before needed to leave for work (which is still in chaos
due to no internet) - - so I was going to wait to deal with that till I got home later
tonight. I don't need the DCP until Friday night. BUT, although the client did not
have a DCP, and I'm not even sure he understands what one is, he swore that it
played as a DCP at another venue last week, and. I was able to track that person
down an not only did he still have the DCP that he made for that show, but he
graciously offered to upload it to a GoogleDrive folder and share it with me. I see
that the file is ready for download, but I still have no friggn' internet at the theater,
so I'll have to wait to download it until I get home later. Unfortunately, I have a
semi-late 35mm show tonight, so I probably won't get home till close to midnight.

Yes, festivals can be a challenge, especially when working with certain film makers.
("just because someone CAN make their own DCP, doesn't mean they should")

When I was freelancing festivals and having to deal with multiple surprise formats,
I wound up buying myself a dedicated "show computer" and a registered copy of
"PlayBack-Pro" I had gotten used to using PBP for some events at Dolby and
at trade-shows. Yes, the whole set up cost me around $3k, but it more than
paid for itself because I got the reputation of being able to 'play almost anything"
and I got hired for many jobs, and most wound up being repeat clients.

For anyone not familiar with PBP it allows you to build complicated playlists, and
modify or set audio, video, and aspect ratios for each clip individually, as well as
embed pauses & fades between clips. I think PBP cost me around $650, but
was worth every penny in problems it solved and headaches I didn't have to
deal with.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Yeah I come from trade show/keynote video background (among other crafts), playback pro was THE standard for eons. I own two license dongles I got on eBay, but I’ve yet to replace my aged Mac. Venue has one production Mac that is modern enough, but it is dedicated to the smaller theatre when they have shows. Desperately wish they would buy another, or I’ll finally replace mine and just charge them a kit when these shows come up.

If nothing else PBP is worth it just because you can specify the in and out points of clips that arrive to you with tons of black, without having to "edit" them.

[Carsten Kurz]

I notice that Playback Pro is used on a shortfilm festival that I regularly attend - and I also very often notice frame rate issues, that is, it often looks as if any file frame rate is played back at 60fps, and thus I notice jittering, especially, of course, in rolling titles. Wondering wether Playback Pro is not able to adjust the screen refresh rate to the source frame rate?

[Ryan Gallagher]

I notice that Playback Pro is used on a shortfilm festival that I regularly attend - and I also very often notice frame rate issues, that is, it often looks as if any file frame rate is played back at 60fps, and thus I notice jittering, especially, of course, in rolling titles. Wondering whether Playback Pro is not able to adjust the screen refresh rate to the source frame rate?

PBP will ultimately inherit refresh rates from the host computer display settings, as will most software solutions. Macs are not the best about exposing all of them to the user. It also depends what is in the chain after the Mac. I doubt in festival context they are willing to muck with the display settings between each screening, so it is just ignored and shown at 60fps or 59.94, motion artifacting be damed. With a little more effort you can try accommodate 24p at least, but lots of this ALT chain gear won’t have a genlock or way to pass on true frame timings, scalers, if used, will be set to free-run a lot.

with my recent show driven by OBS for all but the DCP content. On a PC I was able to set up for 24p. But not all clips provided were 24p and several exhibited distracting jitters, in the end I went back to 59.94 cause most of these young filmmakers were providing 23.978 clips for youtube preferred compatibility.

i also had a BM broadcast switcher in line and was sending program out via SDI to our decimator at the projector. Lots of places to affect frame rates if you are not careful.

EDIT, apologies, that was a slight LIE, has been a while since I was in PBP. I just checked and in "Program Setup" you can change the resolution and refresh on the output monitor. But it will only list the modes the system and display claim to support, and you can't change it while any program content is running. Testing right now with my older mac on my ThinkVision desktop display, PBP doesn't even list 24fps. 30, 60, and 25 only. But I blame this era mac for that, I do 24p from my AppleTV to this monitor.

It is a nice feature cause it means you can change output properties without having to need to navigate to any UI on that external display, can do it while shuttered etc. Macs system menus used to always force you to get to a UI element on the 2nd display initially, that has gotten better though.

[Ryan Gallagher]

During the period where PBP seemed unlikely to release an Apple silicon native version, Mitti was the industry pivot, and lots of places stuck with it. It is also more modestly priced per seat than PBP.

After they released PBP-X both became options again.

There was also an earlier era where PBP used to be non reliable with h.264 files, and we would transcode all show resources to ProRes LT.