Fun WIth HDR !

[Jim Cassedy]

I was putting together a playlist for a special event last week that was going to
require me to switch between HDR and Non-HDR content in a timely manner at
the end of the feature. Unfortunately, it takes the Barco 9.75 seconds to switch
between HDR/Non-HDR, so I wanted to see if I could get away with running the
non-HDR content in HDR. The image in question was a still slide image from
the studio they wanted on screen when the director made a surprise appearance.
That led to several experements to see what happens to HDR and Non-HDR
content, when played in the 'wrong' mode. So, just for fun, I thought I'd share
the images with y'all.

This is the background slide, played in the correct "Non-HDR" mode.
(The focus was a bit off on my cameraphone)


When played in HDR, parts of the slide take on the look of a 1960's
psychedelic Peter Max poster. The results are different for different types
of images, and seem to to vary depending on the colors and contrast
values present in the original graphic.



This is a freeze-frame from the BARCO HDR pre-show promo snipe,
played in the correct (HDR) format. The actual colors and contrast are
better than what you see here, as I think they are beyond the ability to be
captured by my cheap cameraphone. (also, the house lights were partly up
because some people were working in the auditorium)


When HDR content is played in the 'standard' mode, the colors are not as
intense, the image looks 'soft' and the contrast is a bit washed out. The
difference is even more dramatic on screen when seen 'in person' than
what I can capture here with my cameraphone.

[James Gardiner]

I am logged in and the images show up as broken links... :-(

Considering your requirement to convert an SDR to HDR, I would expect it possible to bring the SDR into Resolve, and render it down to a BarcoHDR compatible SMPTE file.
Should be possible. Should ask Peter Chamberlan at BlackMagic.
Try posting the question on the blackmagic forums.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Yikes, that mode change time is awful for running the kinds of shows we run. The extra leg work to make them right sounds like a chore too. Hoping we don’t end up HDR here!

PS also no images for me. Maybe a weird character in the uploaded file names?

[Ryan Gallagher]

Jim, is the Barco any faster about switching to a SDR ALT Input mode?

If yes I'd be tempted to drive such custom event cards off a laptop, would require a bunch of automation work if you wanted shows with more than one still to drive themselves though. Unless integrating HDR mastering into a DCP creation pipeline becomes trivial with software available to the booth.

Barco at least advertises Resolve and FilmLight integration. But neither of those are typically booth tools. I'd have to ask in the DOM forums if it is achievable with DCPomatic alone, or if they are working on it. Being a still perhaps there is also a photoshop way to start the process and conclude it with DOM? But Resolve does seem like the most direct path right now like James suggested.

[Ryan Gallagher]

If SDR ALT is not a solution due to mode change wait time, it seems like we need to start asking for all additional content outside of trailers on HDR screenings to be provided as an HDR mastered DCP file? (Though we all know how likely that is to happen).

Cause any way you slice it, lacking an HDR capable monitor for reference, faking an SDR->HDR conversion is pretty much guess work unless there is a script or LUT barco provides that can be applied to arrive at a known passable result?

I wonder if it the LS4K supports HDR modes via HDMI alt input? HDMI HDR and Cinema HDR are not the same animal though, so that may not solve anything. I was thinking maybe you could tell a PC to output HDR and that would remove that 10s wait step. But seems unlikely.

[Jim Cassedy]

Ryan- I'm pretty sure that an HDR to HDMI format change would take equally as long,
or possibly longer. I'm going in early today because I've got some tech-people coming
in to get a look at the 'beast' (the Barco HDR projectorthingy) - - so I may find time to
try an HDR - to - HDMI switch and see how it goes. Yes, I'm sure HDR and BARCO
HDR are two different animals. I believe BARCO does has some 'plug-in' software
for some of the major editing software platforms, but I doubt Alamo's video production
department (yes, they have one!) would invest in that at this time, since we've got the
only LS-4K in their chain. (and only one of less than ½ dozen installed in the world)

Like you, we too do a number of cinema events which include live intros or QnA's ,
and I'm known for running "tight shows" so 9.5sec is excruciatingly long for me to
wait or a format change, but I think I'm going to have to live with it for now.
I remember one of the first questions I asked, when the Barcoguys were installing
and testing the projector was "Is it always going to take that long to change formats?"
On our first public HDR show, I actually thought the playback had locked up when
it changed from the standard def trailers to the HDR feature. It's so slow, I've
taken to timing the transitions using an hour-glass. ⏳
I'll try the HDMI switch later today and see if it's any better, or if it takes long enough
for me to go out for a quick lunch.

> PICTURES:
OK, I have no friggin' idea why some of my pix are not showing up. I'm not doing
anything different than I've done for the past dozen or more years on FT when
uploading files. The odd part is that last night & this morning, I tried logging in on
several devices (A windows laptop, an android tablet, an I-Pad, 2 Macbook Pros,
and a Mac Air), Using 3 different browsers ( Firefox, Chrome, and Safari), on two
totally different networks ( My ultra-fast direct fiber connection at home, and the
network at the theater, which I think runs on molasses.)
>> AND I ALWAYS SEE THE PICTURES! (unless i"m not logged in to FT)
- - sowhatsupwiththat?

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

PS also no images for me. Maybe a weird character in the uploaded file names?

Same here. Jim, are your images too large of an original file? Are they in a format other than jpeg? Your posts so far are the only ones in recent history that have this problem on my end. (if you're shooting on an Iphone maybe Apple has some DRM in the files the forum software doesn't like.)

Do you have a good antivirus program running on your computers? (And no Norton and McAffee are NOT good programs, I use AVG and have never had an issue unlike those other two I just called out.)

Are you uploading them using the "image" icon in the taskbar (the little one with the two mountain peaks and the moon) or are you using the "camera" icon on the very top left of the reply box? I always use the one in the taskbar and have never had issues. (The taskbar should have all the options for font, size, style, colors, bold, italic, underline, etc...)

This:

Screenshot 2025-04-23 at 11-11-24 Fun WIth HDR ! - Film-Tech Forums.png

[Jim Cassedy]

Yes Tony, i've been using the same process & using the picture upload icon in the
task bar as I've done for over a decade. The pix originate on an Android (Samsung)
phone, and I do have AVG. What's confusing me is that < I > can see the posted
pictures using a number of different devices, browsers, and networks, at both
home and work, so this is bugging me. The only thing that the two problem posts
with picture problems have in common, is that I think they were composed and
uploaded from the same device. I'm going to try re-uploading the pix from a different
device, and using a different browser to see if that works.
(And I DO appreciate your suggestions in trying to troubleshoot!)

[Jim Cassedy]

I'm going to try a re-upload of the 'missing' HDR pix and captions.
( I'm using different computer and different browser than I did for the first post/upload)

This is the background slide, played in the correct "Non-HDR" mode.
(The focus was a bit off on my cameraphone)
HDR1.jpg

When played in HDR, parts of the slide take on the look of a 1960's
psychedelic Peter Max poster. The results are different for different types
of images, and seem to to vary depending on the colors and contrast
values present in the original graphic.
HDR2.jpg

This is a freeze-frame from the BARCO HDR pre-show promo snipe,
played in the correct (HDR) format. The actual colors and contrast are
better than what you see here, as I think they are beyond the ability to be
captured by my cheap cameraphone. (also, the house lights were partly up
because some people were working in the auditorium)
HDR3.jpg

When HDR content is played in the 'standard' mode, the colors are not as
intense, the image looks 'soft' and the contrast is a bit washed out. The
difference is even more dramatic on screen when seen 'in person' than
what I can capture here with my cameraphone.
HDR4.jpg

> I HOPE THESE WORK!

[Ryan Gallagher]

Those pictures work. Looking forward to hearing what your best fit process becomes over time.

[Harold Hallikainen]

The pictures work that time. I think of HDR as just "turning up the contrast control" on an old TV. Low codes now yield a darker pixel than standard, and higher codes yield a brighter pixel. I think your images show that.

It's interesting that it takes so long to change between standard and HDR. It seems like it could just be the change of a constant the codes are multiplied by, or loading a new gama curve. Maybe it takes the reload of an entire FPGA which could take some time.

I remember ISDCF plugfest tests on frame rate changes. Projectors put on a nice random light show for several seconds during the frame rate change. So... the dowser was closed during that time.

[Jim Cassedy]

(edited)Looking forward to hearing what your best fit process becomes over time.

OMG! I just did a test and switching between HDR and HDMI takes a full 11.45sec. Not
only that, but when I switch to the HDMI input, it STOPS the DCP player. So, for example,
If I wanted to build an HDR playlist, that included 30sec of 'black' during which the projector
would switch to HDMI, and then back to HDR at the end of 30sec, it would be impossible to
do, without also perhaps inserting some pause & 'start' cues, which would add even more
time to the 22.9sec it would take just to do the transitions. Agggggggahhh! Fortunately at
this time, it's not a situation that I'm likely to have to deal with until I figure out how to do
it. The playback stoppage may be something that can be changed in the projector
configuration, but I don't have access to those settings. I'm only the 'Chief Projectionist'
here. (actually I'm the ONLY projectionist here, so I'm sort of 'boss over nothing' !)

Bonus Info: It also takes a full 10sec just to switch between HDR FLAT & HDR SCOPE !

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Jim, the pictures worked this time for me as well.

And you're welcome, hope it helped. Now the mystery boils down to what on the first computer/browser combo is causing the issue....

[Jim Cassedy]

In what was an amazing example of fortuitous timing, one of the actual engineers
from Barco in Canada dropped in to my booth today. Can you guess what we spoke
about? lol !! I've worked shows with all kinds of famous directors and movie stars,
and for the most part I don't care.
But I'm always thrilled and impressed when I get to meet people who actually
designed or built the equipment I work with. This used to happen to me quite a
bit when I did shows over at Dolby. Those designers and engineers are real
'celebrities' to me. Whenever I was asked one of those questions at a job
interview or party like: "What person, living or dead, would you like to meet?",
my answer usually came down to either Christ, or Thomas Edison.
(and not necessarily in that order )

[Ryan Gallagher]

A long delay between Flat and Scope doesn't bug me as much here, but if I had fully automated masking that were snappy, and a working ILS zoom, it might start to get in the way.

Sounds like any projector present change is basically 9-11s unless it is programmed with minimal parameter changes, HDR or not. Yeesh. Maybe, hopefully, this can be improved with software revisions.

The DCP playback interruption would trip me up too, I often use that trick of letting a black time out how long I'm on the alternate input, or set my digital backup timing when firing off a Blu-Ray backup to 35mm/70mm.

Was letting DCP playback roll through an ALT switch something that was possible with other IMS? I've only had experience with Doremi/external media servers, so it makes sense it was doable cause projector control was fully separate from SPL control.