Were early Bausch & Lomb Super-Cinephors f/2.3 Ernostar/Speedic type lenses?

[Johannes Schmalzl]

Yet another question... (I'm sorry, still learning, I guess) hopefully someone knows:

The Super-Cinephor lenses (from the f/2 series of 1941 onwards) were certainly 6 elements in 4 groups Double Gauss designs and I think that's well documented and even shown in some of the announcement articles or ads for the lenses.

However there was an earlier Super-Cinephor series of lenses with a speed of f/2.3 which seems to have been introduced around 1931 and was usually referred to only as an Anastigmat lens which doesn't tell us too much. Given the unusual way some of these lenses look (narrow rear element, some longer focal lengths seemingly with a ring somewhere in the middle or at least an incredibly long hood in front etc. I suspect that these might have been Speedic/Ernostar types of lenses. The wording in various ads makes it sound like they intentionally didn't want the design to be known and it was even called a "secret formular" in one of them, making me believe it wasn't an improved Petzval type.

Super-Cinephor_Ad_SecretFormula_MotionPictureHerald_1932.jpg
Bausch & Lomb did have a patent for a Speedic/Ernostar type lens from 1900 but they didn't seem to have used it for projection, likely due to restrictions which come with that type of design. However around 1925 several companies were working on improved designs of this type for various applications and it's possible that B&L continued its work on it as well.

Here's an ad showing these lenses:

Super-Cinephor_Ad_Anastigmats_Motion Picture Herald_1938.jpg

To me it looks like the one in the front is disassembled and that it has 4 optical parts. Of course it's also possible that this shows a 6 elements in 4 groups design and that two of the parts contain a doublet... It wouldn't be too surprising given B&L also worked on their Baltar series with identical specs at the time. Because I haven't been able to find any documentation on the matter in the usual books (Cox, Kingslake etc.) I'm wondering, if anyone here has ever seen such a lens and knows how many elements it contains?

I'd once more really appreciate your help!

[Ryan Gallagher]

We have 3 Super Cinephors kicking around, but all are f1.8, probably not from this series? I gave you our list previously but apologies if I have not gotten back to you on the ones you are most interested in. Will follow up.

[Johannes Schmalzl]

We have 3 Super Cinephors kicking around, but all are f1.8, probably not from this series?

Thanks a lot! Indeed, these are (at least) 2 full steps removed. There was the f/2 Super-Cinephor before those and possibly even another re-design after the f/1.8 were first introduced in 1953...

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I ran into a few of those that were still installed when I was doing service work in smaller theaters in the Midwest, never ran into any out in the Mountain States.. But once I ran a loop of RP-40 with those I always found myself ordering the theater new Isco or Schneider's.

[Johannes Schmalzl]

I ran into a few of those that were still installed when I was doing service work in smaller theaters in the Midwest, never ran into any out in the Mountain States.. But once I ran a loop of RP-40 with those I always found myself ordering the theater new Isco or Schneider's.

Thank you! I get that... even if they were the newer f/1.8 design, they could have been from the 1950s still... So it likely was a good choice to recommend new lenses. It's just a pity that so few people know anything about the optical properties of these lenses. From a historical standpoint it would be very interesting to know, if Bausch & Lomb decided to experiment with a Sonnar/Speedic Anastigmat lens for a couple of decades before settling on the well-known 6/4 Double Gauss variant. But I guess a lot of knowledge about these lenses is going to be lost for good, regardless of the effort. The secrecy around lens-making and lens deisgns/patents certainly didn't help either.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

You can look up any US patent for free on line. All you need is the number. All US Patents include an explanation of the design. That patent should long be expired, and that makes it even easier to look up.

[Jim Cassedy]

Yes, there were still a lot of those B&L Super Cinephor lenses still in use at many
smaller 'neighborhood' theater venues when I started working projection in the
mid 1970's. Until a few years ago, I knew of several that were still in use here in
San Francisco. I believe they've been retired by now.

[Josh Jones]

Thank you! I get that... even if they were the newer f/1.8 design, they could have been from the 1950s still... So it likely was a good choice to recommend new lenses. It's just a pity that so few people know anything about the optical properties of these lenses. From a historical standpoint it would be very interesting to know, if Bausch & Lomb decided to experiment with a Sonnar/Speedic Anastigmat lens for a couple of decades before settling on the well-known 6/4 Double Gauss variant. But I guess a lot of knowledge about these lenses is going to be lost for good, regardless of the effort. The secrecy around lens-making and lens deisgns/patents certainly didn't help either.

Like most corporate things, information about 'how the sausage is made' is considered company secret. Patents may give you some insight, but likely isn't going to give you the full details.

[Johannes Schmalzl]

You can look up any US patent for free on line. All you need is the number. All US Patents include an explanation of the design. That patent should long be expired, and that makes it even easier to look up.

Like most corporate things, information about 'how the sausage is made' is considered company secret. Patents may give you some insight, but likely isn't going to give you the full details.

Thank you all very much! While I'm quite familiar by now with looking up patents, I haven't been able to find one definitively linked to the earlier Super-Cinephor f/2.3.

But that didn't stop me from continue looking in other areas and lo and behold, I think I finally managed to find the answer:

Super-Cinephor_F2-3_LensDesign_InternationalProjectionist_1935-27.jpg
This is an excerpt from an article published in the International Projectionist in 1935. It was written by Wilbur B. Rayton who seems to have been one of the leading lens designs for Bausch & Lomb at the time. There's even a B&L lens called "Raytar" and the reason why they were usually reluctant to disclose the lens`design and only called it an "anastigmat" might have to do with the still ongoing work on the Raytar and Baltar lines... (I don't have a full grasp on the timelines, but I think they were released some time after the Cinephor f/2.3).

So the quick summary: The Super-Cinephor f/2.3 was very likely a 6 elements in 4 groups (Opic-based) design (probably the first of its kind among projection lenses) and was further improved to f/2 and later to a f/1.8 version some decades later. The underlying design was certainly recalculated but never changed drastically in its layout.

Yes, there were still a lot of those B&L Super Cinephor lenses still in use at many
smaller 'neighborhood' theater venues when I started working projection in the
mid 1970's. Until a few years ago, I knew of several that were still in use here in
San Francisco. I believe they've been retired by now.

Indeed - many of these lenses were used for a long time. They seem to have been reliable and were likely made in big numbers as well. They seem to have had a better reputation than the Kollmorgen equivalents. I'm not sure how they compared to the Wollensak Cinema Raptars but they likely outpaced them considerably in terms of numbers regardless.

ISCO got into the game quite late with their 6/4 Super-Kiptar line of lenses but they certainly made quite an impact from the mid 1950s on.