New Guy Here

[Nathan Harp]

Hello all and thanks for the membership. Let me preface by saying the film industry is not in my wheel house, suffice to say I am here in hopes of preserving some history and or learning some more.

I arrived here after doing some research about some cool looking, heavy cast iron stands/pedestals that I bought at an auction. I bought these stands not knowing what they were and with the intent to use them as bench grinder stands before learning just how old they are. I was puzzled as to what they were originally used for for a long time! After posting pictures online of these stands/pedestals I was informed just what they were...I was informed they are hard to find, silent era 35mm pedestals and, "it wo uld be a sacrilege to use them as bench grinder stands!". Taking that statement into consideration I don't have the heart to just slap some bench grinders on them if they truly are rare and could be used for their original purpose all the while helping someone out with their resto project. If anyone has the time, please direct me to someone that might appreciate these stands for what they are or has a use for them. I strive to be a general steward of preservation and have a general appreciation for antiques so if I could connect these stands with an appreciative someone, I would be just as excited to help them out. Now, given the weight I am thinking shipping would be kind of expensive but I would make it happen if someone wanted these bad enough.

If this post goes against policy or is in the wrong area please forgive me. Also, I want to be clear, it isn't my intent to get rich by selling these pedestals, I am merely excited to see if I can make someone's day by having them available for their project. Thanks for any help!

Nathan Harp
Pedestals.jpg
Pedestals 2.jpg

[Sean McKinnon]

Welcome! Nice find. If you cleaned them up and painted them you would have a couple of great historical conversation pieces!

[Jim Cassedy]

What you have, I believe look like a pair of "Western Electric 3 point Pedestals". which would date them back to the early days of "talking pictures"- - roughly 1926/27, although Simplex made an almost identical model.

This assumption is reinforced by the fact that one of them still has the remnants of a very early (pre-1930) sound-head (and flywheel) attached. Unfortunately the old sound head is missing enough pieces & is rusted enough to prevent me from identifying or dating it further. I still encountered a few of these old pedestals, still in use, at several old theaters when I first started projecting in the early 1970's. And I still occasionally find one stashed in the basement of an old theater here & there that I'm called to do some work at.

I have no idea if they're worth anything. Most that were taken out of service were probably discarded as scrap metal. These two look quite weather-worn, but I'm no expert in metal work, and I've seen some amazing restoration of old machinery that I would have considered "junk". done by those who know what they're doing and have the time & resources to undertake such a project and make things "like new". So, they are worth something to someone- - and I sincerely applaud your efforts to "find them a good home" and I hope you're successful at doing that.

>> and if anybody is interested, I've got over one hundred, 2000ft foot 35mm film cans (empty) in an old theater that I've been asked to get rid of. 95% of them are steel cans and have been stored in a damp basement for over 20years, so most are quite rusty. I'm not even sure they have any scrap metal value in this shape. Like Nathan, I'm more interested in just 'getting rid of them' than in making any money. They're free for the asking if anyone in the SF Bay area wants to come get them. PM me for more info and a picture. (Of the CANS - - not me!)

Here's a picture, Of A WE-Base With Old Proj & Flywheel Attached, Similar To What You've Got
The proj in this picture is early vintage, but the attached soundhead in this photo is much newer.
WE-BASE.jpg
[photo credit: e-bay]

[Frank Cox]

Back in the days of film (does it make us a bunch of old coots when we write stuff like that?) I was told that there was a theatre in southern Saskatchewan that was still running silent movie projectors from 1916 that had been actually been converted for sound.

I never saw them, but I thought that was pretty cool.

[Nathan Harp]

Thank you all for the information. Are there perhaps any other outlets online where I might run across an individual that would have a desire for these?

Also, I noticed on my pedestals the base was cast as one solid piece. The pictured example above from Jim is a two-piece design that is bolted together. Does this make mine any more identifiable or dateable?

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Anybody have available the flywheel for a WesternElectric 206A head, or know where one may be available? I believe that's what is pictured attached on the backside of the soundhead in the first picture above or it's similar. I tried contacting the guy who started this post but it's been so long who knows if he still has it available. Anyway tips on how to get a hold of one would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Anybody have available the flywheel for a WesternElectric 206A head, or know where one may be available? I believe that's what is pictured attached on the backside of the soundhead in the first picture above or it's similar. I tried contacting the guy who started this post but it's been so long who knows if he still has it available. Anyway tips on how to get a hold of one would be much appreciated. Thanks.

You looking for a historic part or just trying to make it work? If the latter I expect there is not much to the flywheel other than a well balanced rotating mass, could probably have one turned on a lathe.

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Looking for it as part of a semi-historic restoration/rebuild. Want to have it working as well as within my ability but not expecting to do anything 100% in terms of function or historically correct. If I'm unable to locate one, I might try and go towards machining or modifying something, but I don't have any of exact specifications in terms of size and weight. As of right now I'm hoping it would be cheaper and easier to find one than make one. If anyone has available or knows the specs on one of those things that info would be great. Thanks

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Back in the days of film (does it make us a bunch of old coots when we write stuff like that?) I was told that there was a theatre in southern Saskatchewan that was still running silent movie projectors from 1916 that had been actually been converted for sound.

I never saw them, but I thought that was pretty cool.

Well if the old coot fits........

[Tj Hopland]

Got a picture of a 206? WE had quite a few models and even variations within the models. The model in the 3rd post is the one that doesn't have a sprocket in it and the flywheel doesn't look correct unless its just a variation. Most of those I saw were more of a dished shaped thing with some slots in it.

The soundhead in the original post looks like its probably an Ultraphone Jewell. The sound gate doesn't quite look right but there could have been different variations or that memory could have been displaced by ICP boards. Could also be a Webber which usually used the name Syncrofilm. I remember the Webber's having more of a drum shaped gate area. Another thing that points to Ultraphone is Jewell manufacturing was Minneapolis and Chicago so a really good chance of finding one in Iowa. Jewell like most others in the era ran into legal / patent issues with Western Electric so didn't last that long or get that big of a foothold in the industry.

There was still a fair amount of that dawn of sound on film gear running into the 1980's. One fairly common practice was to put new equipment in the indoor theater and move the old stuff to the drive in you just built. You had things like 3d and Cinemascope that could maybe benefit your indoor which was also a year round operation so owners were more likely to spend the money there than at the drive in which was seasonal in many areas. Many of the dealers across the country made parts and kits to keep them going, things like maybe a different pulley / flywheel to allow using a different motor and or belts. They would do things like modify the amps to use more 'modern' more readily available at the time tubes and then in later years install solar cells and solid state PA amplifiers. 80's was also when many of the smaller towns (and drive ins) closed and when the first gen xenon and automation stuff started hitting the used market so those two factors got rid of most of that real early stuff. I did know of a few places that did manage to keep that stuff going with carbons and tubes into the late 90's. I never saw those running but based on the condition of the equipment (now in the lobby) it had to have been a pretty terrible experience for the customers.

[Jeffrey Pratt]

TJ
Thanks for the info, some the of the details on this stuff is pretty hard to dig into and discover for someone new to this equipment like me. Here are some pictures of what I'm working with, and stuff I've found...First a good reference photo from Projecting Sound Picture 1931 of a 206A, a couple of photos I've found off the internet of what I believe might be 206A systems installed, and lastly some pictures of what I 've got and where I think the big flywheel is missing.

[Tj Hopland]

I remember that one, or a similar one. The one I was thinking of had a larger tapered shaft with a built in puller setup that was a little confusing if you had not seen anything like it before. This one being a straight shaft could be a good thing if you have to improvise something. The belts were also unique, they were a woven material I presume to decouple small variations from the motor so the flywheel could do its thing.

Do you have the motor and motor bracket? It looks like I can see the vertical slot that the motor bracket mounts to in one of the photos. Is the wood a shipping crate or is that your stand? If that is your stand and you are missing those parts I have to ask is there some reason you are trying to get this specific stuff working? Was this the actual stuff from the theater or town you are setting up this display from? If so then I guess it does make some sense. If not then it may take some time but you should be able to find something very similar that is more complete. Having a budget and the ability to travel and haul would speed up the process but I'm sure there is stuff still sitting in your area, you just have to find it hopefully in the hands of someone willing to let it go.

Fill us in on the big picture here so to speak. If we know what the overall goal is maybe we can make recommendations on how to proceed and or what other sorts of equipment you should or could be looking for. There are plenty of museums even some big ones with projector displays missing major components and or vastly different eras of equipment slapped together so its not like there is some high standard to meet especially when its the general public viewing the stuff. If you have more pictures of what you currently have to work with as well as the space its going to be set up in that could help too.

Something I have always wanted to do with a lobby projector is get it set up with a variable speed gear motor so that a 2000' reel takes roughly an hour to go through. A RCA 9030 with its streamline motor cover would be ideal because you could hide the gear motor and controls under the cover. You could use some sort of LED flashlight to get enough cool light to be visible on a nearby wall. The movement would just look cool to most people and allow people that wanted to look closer to see how things actually worked. You could really go nuts and have a little display screen of some sort with the image of a arc if you had the lamp closed. Maybe one of those micro projectors projecting an arc image on the arcscope? Have a rewind setup also running slow and 2 reels of trailers so between rushes you re thread and re load the rewind so it was all ready to go for the next set?

[Ryan Gallagher]

Something I have always wanted to do with a lobby projector is get it set up with a variable speed gear motor so that a 2000' reel takes roughly an hour to go through. A RCA 9030 with its streamline motor cover would be ideal because you could hide the gear motor and controls under the cover. You could use some sort of LED flashlight to get enough cool light to be visible on a nearby wall. The movement would just look cool to most people and allow people that wanted to look closer to see how things actually worked. You could really go nuts and have a little display screen of some sort with the image of a arc if you had the lamp closed. Maybe one of those micro projectors projecting an arc image on the arcscope? Have a rewind setup also running slow and 2 reels of trailers so between rushes you re thread and re load the rewind so it was all ready to go for the next set?

That is my eventual hope for our Brenkert Supreme in the basement, minus the rewind... would probably put our vintage manual rewinds down there, but I suppose you could "motorize" them for display. Though I wasn't considering a slower intermittent speed, but rather a custom loop... but interesting idea. If you want to see the reels turning you gotta use a reel!! We even have the vintage RCA in-wall art-deco rack covers in storage still (original to our booth). Most of the gear they would have housed is gone though, handful of odd tube things still floating around.

The pico projector idea to shoot the arc image out is a clever touch. Could even go the whole 9 yards and put a tiny special effects fogger in it to billow "smoke" out of the stack.

LED car headlights are suitable, but design that works depends a bit on your reflector design, they might have to sit 90deg to a traditional carbon.

Done right, and if prominent enough, you could use a "reel end bell" (or an amplified one) as a replacement warning for patrons instead of flashing the lobby lights. Or maybe the bells are the 1 minute warning and the lights were the 5min warning. ;-) Falling arm bells would still work with a slowed down reel... Hatke ones would not so would have to fake em.

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Alright well...since your asking... I definitely could use some advice, and suggestions on this project and would really appreciate any input people might have. And I'm sure some here might think this kind of crazy or a bad idea or both. This kind of open ended, I'm not really setting any specific expectations since I don't know how far you can go before its unfeasible, but what I'm thinking is a kind of preservation / restoration with this stuff. With my first plan is to get everything cleaned and the projectors for lack of an appropriate terms "turning over".

I started a couple of years ago and bought the first simplex with WE sound head, I've kind of tinkered with it a little but without any of the other elements like the motor, flywheel, pedestal, lamp, etc. I never had much idea what I could do with it. Somewhere along its history someone had fashioned a rolling wooden base for it which is kind of charming but not very practical for use. I eventually found some magazines but that was it. Recently though I've purchased as a single lot off of eBay; 2 complete matching projector sets; Simplex projectors, with RCA MI 9001 sound heads, pedestals, magazines, and early Peerless "Reflector Arc Lamps" and a "Neumade" rewinder(with an interesting mercury switch , I believe, in the back, not pictured). But no rectifiers...They are in pretty, pretty ruff shape with surface rust but...as far as I could imagine their next stop was the scrap pile, so I thought what the hell..!! The idea of "preserving" 2 matching period equipped projectors seemed interesting, and since the first WE equipped is rust free and quite nice I'm thinking between the 3 something can be done. Purchasing two more projectors, and kind of working on them all together is what prompted me to find what remains for the first projector namely "the flywheel".

To start with I'm planning on cleaning, and loosening up the movement on the pedestals. Then taking off and fixing the rust on them , and then doing a little non-suppressive respraying where needed. Next, when I first planned on purchasing the Peerless lamps I had no intention of even considering restoring them to any kind of working order, maybe putting a high intensity bulb inside....but now after getting a chance to look over them closer, I'm considering it a little. And this is something I'm really hoping people on the forum may be able to advise me on... The mechanisms seem to be basically complete, the reflectors are not broken, the gap adjusting drive and motors seem complete. The thing that does seem to be missing from the lamps is a condensing lens? From the images and explanations I can find, namely "Richards Handbook of Projection" there may have been condensing lenses... neither lamp has them or even a trace of their mounts. But also from some other reading I'm wondering if they were always used inside the lamp house or sometimes not? Anyhow my plan is to fix the surface rust on the lamp house, loosen, remove, and clean the interior mechanisms. The next question is about re-silvering the reflector, is it feasible or any suggestions people might have? Its not gone really gone or peeled away (see pics)... I need to try cleaning them a little more first to figure out...Either way I'll clean and put into "moving" order and re-install the interior mechs. The idea of actually lighting the arcs (or not) or the rectifiers I'm thinking I'll save for a little down the road.

The idea for the projectors themselves is basically the same, I'm gonna clean them up and try to get everything moving properly. I'm betting that will involve mostly disassembling and reassembling them... both the two new projectors with the RCA sound heads have the motors and the flywheels. I'm thinking the motors should work when rewired. So with the projectors I'd like to get them running film, that's the main step I'd love to accomplish. If somehow that works, down the road, then I'll think about sound.

There is no ultimate plan for these projectors yet, I want to save them, take them one step at a time, and maybe put them on display in my studio, kind of a historic projection booth area. Maybe in the future use them for a more elaborate installation or actually get them running or donate them somewhere who might be interested. One interesting aspect of the machines, as a set coming from one booth I was surprised to find was the vintage "Projectionists Graffiti" on the inside rewinder and also inside of some of the magazines. I tried to some get good shots of it if you look closely in the pics. I think it's great and I'll definitely not be removing that stuff. Please I'm open to all suggestion so don't hesitate if anyones got ideas on some of my plans or suggestions.
Thank You
Jeff IMG_3096.jpg IMG_3102.jpg IMG_3092.jpg IMG_3115.jpg IMG_3116.jpg IMG_3103.jpg IMG_3113.jpg IMG_3090.jpg IMG_3091.jpg

[Jeffrey Pratt]

more pics... IMG_3108.jpg IMG_3097.jpg IMG_3109.jpg IMG_3093.jpg IMG_3098.jpg IMG_3112.jpg