Turn off digital

[Tj Hopland]

Oh and on the copyright front, I think Frank is OK. He has the inverted colors. He did Led so I think that means his is a name vs Steve's in caps that is an acronym. And my English knowledge isn't good enough to know for sure if ON and On are the same or what wacky rules there are around that. I would say I see ON more than On but I don't know if its one of our English quirks where its wrong except when its right sometimes. Plus different locations and possibly different fonts, can't quite tell in Steve's.

And I'm pretty sure the reason Steve hasn't replied yet is he is coming up with the V2 version on a brass plate with the accompanying trademark and patent applied for under one or more of the following text like what you used to see on the old Simplex projectors.

[Frank Raia]

Tj , that is funny. Can't wait to see Steve's brass plate!

[Steve Guttag]

Actually, intellectual properly (patent, trademark and copyright) are a family business (though I wasn't part of that business). Dad and two brothers were. The phrase with the question mark would be what would be copyrighted, as it pertains to LED digital readers as used in a cinema. It wouldn't be a stylistic thing, like the font (you can't copy a book and say...but I used Arial not Schoolbook). A trademark can and often does have stylistic things to make it unique. However, a key point of a trademark is it cannot be "functional." When one of my bothers saw the Dolby double-D in the Dolby Digital blocks...his first question to me was..."would it still work if the logo wasn't in the middle?" If it wouldn't Dolby could have lost its trademark on those grounds (there is no way Dolby's IP lawyers would have let that sort of mistake happen).

I would think my copyright claim would be a weak one owing to commonality of the words and phrase with just a change of a word or two. Just don't forget where you got it, buddy!

[Frank Raia]

IMG_20250906_210758.jpg Just for you Steve!

[Steve Guttag]

I dunno...haphazard placement. Not level. Peeling. Clearly over the original "offending" work and it uses most of the copyrighted work so it isn't fair use, even if attributed. This does not meet our "standards and practices" use of the property. At least it doesn't use Arial.

[Tj Hopland]

How about the question of which side of the driver board did you put the switch on question?

That's an interesting bit about functional logos. So you invent something that has a unique shape like say the Geneva drive, you could have patented the shape of the star and how it interacts with the cam to give that intermittent motion but would not have been able to trademark the star shape from your machine as your company logo because that's the function bit?

[Frank Raia]

Tj i broke into the out of the board to the led head

[Steve Guttag]

How about the question of which side of the driver board did you put the switch on question?

That's an interesting bit about functional logos. So you invent something that has a unique shape like say the Geneva drive, you could have patented the shape of the star and how it interacts with the cam to give that intermittent motion but would not have been able to trademark the star shape from your machine as your company logo because that's the function bit?

You'd need to consult a lawyer. I'd say it would be shaky grounds but possible. Here is the way to think about it. Let's say you invented the geneva movement and applied and received a patent on it. This gives you a finite monopoly over that design. If anyone else wants to make that, they have to deal with you until the patent expires. This allows inventors to capitalize on their investments but do not preclude others from working from those designs once the invention becomes commonplace or stale. If you were to trademark the shape of the geneva star, something that does not have the relatively short time of monopoly, it would be used to circumvent the whole patent system. That is where the non-functionality of trademarks come from.

However, the Burger King logo doesn't give them exclusive rights to using a bun for burgers.

[Frank Raia]

A Geneva movement patent refers to a patent for a Geneva mechanism, a device that converts continuous rotation into intermittent, controlled motion. Key patents include early ones like US1932141A (1933) for a basic Geneva mechanism, and more recent examples like EP1828645B1 (2007) for advanced motion controllers, and US5692411 (1997) for noise reduction in a paper sorter. Patents cover various applications, from limiting winding in clocks to operating film projectors and controlling indexing in industrial machines.






What a Geneva Movement Patent Covers


A patent for a Geneva movement would typically describe a new or improved configuration or application of the Geneva mechanism, which consists of:

• A driver (or wheel): with a projecting pin or roller.

• A driven wheel (star wheel): with slots or recesses that the driver's pin engages, allowing for controlled intermittent rotation.
• A locking mechanism: to hold the driven wheel stationary between indexing movements.

Examples of Patents and Their Focus

• US1932141A (1933):
  This is an early patent for a basic Geneva movement device, foundational to the mechanism's development and application.

• US5692411 (1997):
  This patent focuses on improving the Geneva movement by reducing the noise caused by collisions between the drive pin and the Geneva wheel, often seen in devices like paper sorters.
• EP1828645B1 (2007):
  This patent describes a more complex Geneva motion controller, featuring cam units and trigger units for precise, on-demand indexing in machines.
• US2235047A (1940):
  A patent for an "Adjustable geneva mechanism," which suggests innovation in varying the mechanism's performance.

Applications Found in Patents

• Clocks: Historically, the mechanism was used in watches to prevent overwinding.

• Motion Picture Projectors: Used to move film frame by frame.
• Industrial Machinery: To provide controlled, intermittent motion for tasks like indexing or feeding.
• Paper Sorters: To control the movement of trays or other components, as seen in Ricoh's US5692411 paten

[Steve Guttag]

Check out the Cinemeccanica logo. The Maltese Cross of a geneva movement is prominent.

https://www.cinemeccanica.eu/en/

[Ryan Gallagher]

If I wasn’t worried about sucking precious voltage from the reader diode, I would be tempted by those nice panel mount pushbutton that have the LED ring to indicate status.

maybe one is manufactured or could be wired reversed where the glow would indicate digital standby status?

[Ryan Gallagher]

Not at work to meter it, but off hand does anyone know the voltage that feeds the driver board? (CP650 feeding 702 readers)

EDIT: Found it in the CP650 manual pinouts. Reader 1 & 2 provide +/-15v on pins 15 & 19

A status LED button approach seems doable but not as well at the LED voltage of 4-4.5v, most seem to start at 6v or 12v. The shopping trick is to make sure it's a NC (normally close) or provides terminals for either mode of operation, and that the LED terminals are both broken out separately. Those exist, if gilding the lily is the goal. ;-)

https://www.amazon.com/API-ELE-warra...-Button-Switch

(most of those variants say normally open, but the photos say otherwise, and at least one says it can be both as the photos indicate, typically horrible amazon listing), but these kinds of things usually cost 3x on RS, Mouser, or Digikey.

And now you'd have to worry about your button LED failing you, but at least the button would still work. ;-) lol.

I seem to recall though some mention or advice that one should not disconnect Digital readers while the CP650 is powered. So adding a button to unpower the entire reader might be functionally equivalent. Any worry there?

[Frank Raia]

Ryan, the led button would look much nicer than a toggle switch. What is Steve's take on tapping into the 15v?

[Steve Guttag]

Let me get this straight...you want to have an LED switch that lights up to tell you that the other bright LED is lit? Really? Talk about over-thinking the problem. And, in the case of the BACP reader, you do have that red LED on its cover that lights to tell you that the level is too low. This is like putting a pocket protector inside of your pocket protector to protect the outer one.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Let me get this straight...you want to have an LED switch that lights up to tell you that the other bright LED is lit? Really? Talk about over-thinking the problem. And, in the case of the BACP reader, you do have that red LED on its cover that lights to tell you that the level is too low. This is like putting a pocket protector inside of your pocket protector to protect the outer one.

LOL. No, I was just leaning towards those latching panel mount buttons for aesthetic reasons, and they make led variants, so why not have a little fun. It would be pointless if it just followed the reader diode status as you said. You won't need that button in show conditions so finding it in the dark is also not an issue. But on a pure aesthetics front, a bypass button that illuminates when the reader is OFF (bypassed) was slightly tempting.

In fact it would mimic the LED behavior of the CP650 power button, off for active, illuminated for standby. So don't call me crazy for thinking it would be "cute". ;-)