Stage Lighting: Very Expensive!

[Bill Seipel]

A friend in the production biz said I need 12 LED Ellipsoidal spots to light up our 25 ft stage... from our balcony. The balcony is not used for seating currently.

He then said anything less than $1200 per light was "garbage".

Our theater doesnt have those kinds of dollars.

He offerred to sell me 12 older ETC fixtures but those took older bulbs that may not be available soon.

What have you made work?

We have a single overhead now on our stage.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Yes, lighting equipment can be pricy. A full 80 channel dimmer rack by itself is close to 80 grand installed. I spent three years servicing Strand and Colortran (Now Leviton) lighting systems in a five state area out west. It's also one of the most boring jobs I've ever had, and was always relieved if there was also a cinema stop on the same run. Anyway, Shop around on line, check Epay, etc. Contact some stage lighting companies. I would reccomend you contact one in three different major cities for advice/quotes. They are going to need to know height and width of the stage and the distance and angle the lights will be mounted at, and probably how brightly in foot candles you want it lit. Note that LED fixtures do eventually see failed LED's, but typically last about 40X the length an incandescent will last. Also ask if anyone has LED conversion kits for existing lamps. Am pretty sure they do exist today. They didn't back when I was working on the stuff and LED fixtures were brand new. So you may be able to convert your friend's ETC fixtures.
Also ETC or Strand Lighting are the two best, and are pretty much equal in quality. For instance, I just saw an ad on line for four Strand LED spotlights for $1700. That's actually a pretty good deal...

[Armand Daiguillon]

Cheaper lights may be garbage for professionals, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
Our stage is 8 x 16, nothing huge, but I have 6 $60 "dj" type spots lighting it plus 2 200 watt flood lights. ($80 each)
People rent it all the time for comedy stuff bands and even had a play that ran for 2 months. Not once did anybody complain about it being insufficient.
384 channel dmx light board - around $200, and 12 channel input sound board also about $200.
The entire setup is under $1000, is it "professional" quality ? No ... but does it meet the needs of those who actually want to rent that kind of space ? - Yes.
You can always add more expensive stuff later.

[Harold Hallikainen]

I designed lighting control equipment and dimmers for Dove Systems from 1995 to 2007 (when I joined USL). On the dimmer side, everything was phase controlled for incandescent lamps. We made a small DMX decoder (0 to +10V out) that manufacturers put in their fluorescent and LED fixtures. I have not looked at the industry at all for the past 15 years, but I expect that all fixtures are now LED with DMX inputs. This eliminates the need for dimmers. I expect LED fixtures to cost more than incandescent, but don't know how the cost compares when you compare fixture plus dimmer. We made a small 600 watt per channel four channel "shoebox" dimmer that was mounted in the lighting grid. There was also a single channel 2400 watt grid mounted dimmer. These really reduced the infrastructure costs for theaters. I always said we should sell a "dimmer of the month" subscription where you add more channels over time.

Anyway, the industry has changed!

[Ryan Gallagher]

Ebay is your friend here if you are after used professional units. And it highly depends on what you intend to do on the stage and what kind of lighting positions you have available (and power/control). If there is a screen behind that curtain that never moves to reveal a larger stage I feel like 12 front-lights is overkill.

Downstage of the curtain it looks like realistically a 3 area wash. SL, C, SR. And maybe a special for the audience stairs. 4 lights properly lensed might do it.

2 PAR or Fresnel style floods with barn doors would go a long way as curtain warmers to make that curtain pop.

A down light wash of color changing LEDs would be useful if you do small bands or other theatrical type shows on that strip of stage. (if there is a place to put them).

LEDs may cost a bit more, but will not require a dimming system to be included, just control signal, and most of them can change color too.

On a stage that size you can certainly get away with DJ quality wash units... the front lights would be where I'd spend the extra $$ depending on how long that throw is.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

A friend in the production biz said I need 12 LED Ellipsoidal spots to light up our 25 ft stage... from our balcony. The balcony is not used for seating currently.

He then said anything less than $1200 per light was "garbage".

Our theater doesnt have those kinds of dollars.

He offerred to sell me 12 older ETC fixtures but those took older bulbs that may not be available soon.

What have you made work?

We have a single overhead now on our stage.

Your "friend" is a fool. There are PLENTY of quality lights available for well under $1,200 that have been proven to work well, last a long time and fit your needs. You are not touring on the road with worldwide acts where built like a tank and never failing during a show (which is BS by the way, I've seem far too many of those "non-garbage", over $1,200 fixture blow lamps, jam, fail and even catch fire while in use.) And to add to the insult he offered to offload his old junk fixtures with expensive relamp (and soon obsolete lamp) costs on you. That is not a friend by any definition. Even if he gave them to you at no cost, you will spend far more on upgraded power, wiring AND dimming.

Plus as others have mentioned, the requirements for power and dimming are a big factor.

A simple online search for "DJ LED Lighting" turns up loads of results for lights around the $100-200 price point that will be perfect for what you want to do. A relatively versatile DMX lighting board is around $200-300. That requires a single XLR cable from the board to each fixture (super cheap and ready made in many lengths.) You could easily run enough LED lights off of a single 120v 20 amp circuit to really light up the stage.

Here is one example, 8 lights, DMX controllable, under $300: https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/-8-ro...iABEgJwr_D_BwE

Chauvet (has been around since at least the early 1990's) is one well known brand that has proven to be inexpensive and pretty robust. For example, a moving head ("Robo-Spot") fixture, again under $250: https://www.sweetwater.com/c1095--Sp...up=3/1092/1095 This particular model would be good mounted overhead on stage or as a foot/side light. For throw from the balcony you'd need one with higher light output. This one, at 0.6amps, could have up to 26(!) fixtures on a single 20 amp circuit.

Sweetwater is a well known reputable dealer of this type of equipment, as well as instruments and P.A. gear. (including commercial audio install gear)

One tip: DO NOT buy any of the cheaper knock-offs or off brands from the Ama*** site. Most have fake agency safety listings and at least don't hold up and at worst are a fire/safety hazard. If you find Chauvet or other brands as sold by these dealers on A, they would be OK but keep in mind that customer support (and warranty support) on that online site sucks ass. Better to pay a few bucks more from a reputable dealer so you have hassle-free warranty or returns.

To sum this up, a little bit of research and GOOD advice from people who are open minded can have a complete system, stage AND balcony, put together for the same $1,200 or LESS. It will be easier to install, less maintenance, longer lasting, and use less power.

[Phil Ranucci]

Once you decide what you want, contact PRG or 4 Wall lighting. They sell off last year's stuff regularly and might be attractive, pricing wise.
New lighting fixtures use LEDs, but some older lamps are still available.
I would avoid PAR cans, since i think the bulbs are getting harder to find (Osram and GE stopped producing them a few years ago)

[Bill Seipel]

Thank you everyone for the input. Here's where I've ended up:

My old friend had 8 ETC Zoom 15-30's available for purchase at $75 a piece. He is also an ETC dealer and can order the LED retrofit kit for them. I've put a down payment on them and await their arrival. In my mind, it was too good a deal to pass up, considering that new ETC LED fixtures are thousands.

https://www.etcconnect.com/Products/.../Features.aspx

The only remaining task? Mounting them to something in our balcony. Keep in mind we do NOT seat anyone up here due to safety concerns. I don't even like walking around up there.

I could buy four generic light trees and mount them that way but...I'd rather have something else. I'm thinking... black, 2 inch plumbing pipe with a 24x24 base. That should be very sturdy.

20240125_114120.jpg

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

So, you just spent $600 on ETCs that are not controllable, you still have to buy LED retrofit kits for? What about dimming and control? Power wiring? That same $600 would have bought you 8 LED RGB cans, PLUS a DMX lighting board AND one Robo light. And you have to put a down payment on it? How much is the grand total?

Whatever, you do what you think is best and ignore the rest of us with experience in this.

[Bill Seipel]

So, you just spent $600 on ETCs that are not controllable, you still have to buy LED retrofit kits for? What about dimming and control? Power wiring? That same $600 would have bought you 8 LED RGB cans, PLUS a DMX lighting board AND one Robo light. And you have to put a down payment on it? How much is the grand total?

Whatever, you do what you think is best and ignore the rest of us with experience in this.

The LED's can just be plugged into a standard outlet or heavy-duty strip. No dimmer required. They're rated at something like 1.2A draw so a 20A circuit should suffice. The retrofit takes about 5 minutes to complete. Very easy conversion.

We don't really need to control them, other than fading them ON/OFF and I'm not worried about that.
https://www.etcconnect.com/Products/.../Features.aspx

He has 8 ETC 15-30's for sale. I purchased all of them. The LED conversion kits are $650 a piece. So, for $5800, I get professional grade LED stage lights that would have otherwise cost me $16,800.
And they're made in Wisconsin USA.

I feel pretty confident with the level of experience my old friend has. He's been at this professionally for over 20 years. And a long list of satisfied clients.

https://www.advaudio.com/

[Randy Stankey]

15-30's have a somewhat narrow beam. A usual stage light would be in the 36 to 50 degree range. If you are mounting them in the balcony in order to light the stage, they'll probably be far enough back to throw a wide enough beam. You'll probably be okay with four of them across, depending on how wide your proscenium is.

Don't forget that the incandescent lamps are 750 watts. Each one can draw up to 5 or 6 amps. They can draw double that as you turn them on. (inrush) That means that you can only put one of those on a single electrical circuit, safely. You're going to have to use a heavy duty extension cord or, if permanently wired, you'll need to make sure your wiring can support that much current. You MIGHT be able to put two of them on one circuit, provided you turn them on one at a time. If you put more than two of them on a single circuit you could end up blowing fuses.

By "single circuit" I don't mean two different outlets. I mean two different circuit breakers. If you try to plug anything else into the same circuit while those lights are on, you can also cause problems. God forbid, somebody doesn't try to plug in a vacuum cleaner or something!

You might be able to get 500 watt lamps for them and that would cut the current down to less than 5 amps, meaning you can get three on one circuit.

Regardless of the minute details, those lighting fixtures can draw a heck of a lot of current and your electrical system had better be able to support them.
(You don't have to ask me how I know this! )

Now... Once you get the LED retrofits, they'll only draw 150 watts each. That drops the current down to the 1 to 2 amp range. You'll be able to put four or five of them on a single circuit (provided your wiring is good) and, if you don't turn them all on at once, you shouldn't have any problems.

[Bill Seipel]

15-30's have a somewhat narrow beam. A usual stage light would be in the 36 to 50 degree range. If you are mounting them in the balcony in order to light the stage, they'll probably be far enough back to throw a wide enough beam. You'll probably be okay with four of them across, depending on how wide your proscenium is.

Don't forget that the incandescent lamps are 750 watts. Each one can draw up to 5 or 6 amps. They can draw double that as you turn them on. (inrush) That means that you can only put one of those on a single electrical circuit, safely. You're going to have to use a heavy duty extension cord or, if permanently wired, you'll need to make sure your wiring can support that much current. You MIGHT be able to put two of them on one circuit, provided you turn them on one at a time. If you put more than two of them on a single circuit you could end up blowing fuses.

By "single circuit" I don't mean two different outlets. I mean two different circuit breakers. If you try to plug anything else into the same circuit while those lights are on, you can also cause problems. God forbid, somebody doesn't try to plug in a vacuum cleaner or something!

You might be able to get 500 watt lamps for them and that would cut the current down to less than 5 amps, meaning you can get three on one circuit.

Regardless of the minute details, those lighting fixtures can draw a heck of a lot of current and your electrical system had better be able to support them.
(You don't have to ask me how I know this! )

Now... Once you get the LED retrofits, they'll only draw 150 watts each. That drops the current down to the 1 to 2 amp range. You'll be able to put four or five of them on a single circuit (provided your wiring is good) and, if you don't turn them all on at once, you shouldn't have any problems.

These are all getting LED retrofits. I'm not even going to attempt the old bulbs given the heat and the power draw on those 750 watt lamps. (or even 500 watt)

I'm buying an amp clamp to doubly make sure of the power draw when I bring these up on the DMX controller. I'll have to do some additional tests to see which circuit goes with which outlets and then adjust accordingly.

https://www.farmandfleet.com/product...amp-meter.html

[Randy Stankey]

Are you getting pipe clamps and safety cables on the fixtures? You're going to need a way to safely mount them overhead and many sellers don't automatically include clamps and cables.

If you use Grade-5 hardware you can bolt them directly to something solid. Be sure to use lockwashers or, better, Nord-Locks. There's a lug on the body of a Source-Four for a safety cable. Use them. If permanently mounted, you can use a piece of dog chain. The other end of the chain/cable goes around something solid like a steel beam or the batten that the lights hang on.

If you're going to have lights hanging overhead, you need to be sure nobody gets hurt if something breaks loose unexpectedly.

[Bill Seipel]

Are you getting pipe clamps and safety cables on the fixtures? You're going to need a way to safely mount them overhead and many sellers don't automatically include clamps and cables.

If you use Grade-5 hardware you can bolt them directly to something solid. Be sure to use lockwashers or, better, Nord-Locks. There's a lug on the body of a Source-Four for a safety cable. Use them. If permanently mounted, you can use a piece of dog chain. The other end of the chain/cable goes around something solid like a steel beam or the batten that the lights hang on.

If you're going to have lights hanging overhead, you need to be sure nobody gets hurt if something breaks loose unexpectedly.

They all come with C-clamps and safety wire. I'll be taking measurements at the theater today to make sure this lighting truss (I am building) won't interfere with the projector.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Depending how sturdy that handrail is, that is a traditional position (mezz rail) in historic theatres. We use ours that way with c-clamps and safeties. Especially viable if you are not seating up there.

If you decide to seat it in the future or don’t like that look, pipe and base “goal-posts” are an option too if there is s flat spot for the bases. But that method is better suited for non-permanent installs.