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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Future-proofing for 4K 3D

   
Author Topic: Future-proofing for 4K 3D
Antti Nayha
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 01-07-2014 04:55 AM      Profile for Antti Nayha   Email Antti Nayha   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm looking at options for a giant(ish) screen special venue digital installation, and I'm wondering whether I should try and future-proof it for 4K 3D content somehow. I know it's still not even in the DCI spec, but as discussed before, some venues are already getting ready for it.

Apparently the Qube system is already able to play some kind of non-DCI 4K 3D "prototype" content. Does that mean that Qube is somehow a safer bet here? Or do you think that Dolby/Doremi IMB systems will support future 4K 3D DCI via a software update? Do you see any hardware limitations preventing this?

Any speculation is welcome. [Smile]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12211
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-07-2014 06:20 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Until something is codified, you are not safe...the more unique the system is to a particular company or movie, the less safe you are. There is nothing Qube (or any company) can do to ensure the survival of a format. And while things are being developed...things change along the way so what you think was buying into the future may never materialize.

The life-span of this equipment is short enough that one shouldn't plan too far into the future...a little bit is prudent but not too far.

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Antti Nayha
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 01-07-2014 06:38 AM      Profile for Antti Nayha   Email Antti Nayha   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks. That was my gut feeling as well. So I'm probably better off getting a tried-and-true Dolby or Doremi system and worry about 4K 3D later.

Meanwhile, I guess I'll go through some 2013 issues of LF Examiner and look for any industry rumors anyway.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 01-07-2014 06:47 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know that both Sony and Barco are working on 4k/3D systems. Sony is said to be using dual lightengines. The SRX-R515 server XCT-S10 has an ini file option already to play 3D content in 4k (which currently is no real option since the projector uses the split-lens and image mapping for actual 2k-3D display.

As Steve said, except for dual projection, you can't be playing safe on 4k-3D, you have to wait.

- Carsten

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

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From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005


 - posted 01-08-2014 06:59 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your concerns are well founded. Digital folk are well know to like contracts; use this to your advantage.

Whatever your concerns, have them protect you from your fears. For example: "If 4k digital becomes an option within 5 years, your existing money will be fully credited toward the "new" system, prorated after that." If there is an "upgrade" possible, determine what makes you happy and only buy from those who agree. Use an attorney to draw up the wordage and to supervise. If you try to collect, you will certainly need him.
Louis

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

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From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
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 - posted 01-08-2014 11:34 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Louis Bornwasser
Whatever your concerns, have them protect you from your fears. For example: "If 4k digital becomes an option within 5 years, your existing money will be fully credited toward the "new" system, prorated after that."
But what supplier would sign such a contract? Nobody knows what exactly the future will bring and when 4K 3D will become DCI certified. Barco, Christie, Doremi, Dolby, etc. could easily change their roadmap and decide that their existing lineup isn't easily upgradable to 4K 3D even if it would actually just be a mere software upgrade.

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012


 - posted 01-08-2014 02:42 PM      Profile for Terry Lynn-Stevens   Email Terry Lynn-Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Antti Nayha
I'm looking at options for a giant(ish) screen special venue digital installation
How big is this giant screen?

quote:
Any speculation is welcome. [Smile]
I don't think we are going to see 4K 3D anytime soon so I wouldn't worry too much, and by the time the chains put in a plan to guarantee that what you are seeing is truly 4K, by then they will be on to something else.

I fully expect 2K 3D HFR to become more relevant way before 4K 3D if 4k 3D is even in the works. I am willing to bet that Avatar 2 will be the movie that gives HFR the push that it needs.

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Antti Nayha
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 01-08-2014 03:52 PM      Profile for Antti Nayha   Email Antti Nayha   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
How big is this giant screen?
It's just about 18×10 meters (60×33 feet), but the room is a former 8/70mm venue so the seats are very close to the screen. That's why I wrote "giant(ish)". The 4K advantage will no doubt be visible.

Sure, 4K 3D is coming... as pointed out above, at least Qube, Sony and Barco are working on it.

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Stefan Vogels
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From: Aarle-Rixtel, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
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 - posted 01-08-2014 04:18 PM      Profile for Stefan Vogels   Email Stefan Vogels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Should be no problem to make it future proof. If you do double projection with double IMB from doremi on a single ShowVault. If it ever goes to 4K 3D you just add an second ShowVault and have it sync with the master server and send the data for the secondary projector. This way you can go to 4K 3D, HFR 3D or whatever they come up with.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

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From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
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 - posted 01-08-2014 04:24 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Antti Nayha
18×10 meters (60×33 feet)
There are IDF screens smaller than that [Wink] .

Are you planning to play "self-made" 4K 3D content or is it just to be future proof for upcoming 4K 3D DCI content (like in your subject)?

quote: Stefan Vogels
Should be no problem to make it future proof. If you do double projection with double IMB from doremi on a single ShowVault. If it ever goes to 4K 3D you just add an second ShowVault and have it sync with the master server and send the data for the secondary projector. This way you can go to 4K 3D, HFR 3D or whatever they come up with.
This obviously only works in a dual projector setup, for single projector setups, the future is rather uncertain. Same for HFR 4K 3D, even in dual-projector setups.

The IMS1000 also supports 4K HDMI inputs (at least on paper), so alternate 3D 4K content that can be split across two separate HDMI outputs there should also be a solution.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 01-08-2014 04:41 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Series-II DLPs can only display 4k at max 30fps, so no HFR even with dual IMB/projection setups.

Given the existing installation base of 2k-only capable 3D systems, 4k-3D will only be an optional distribution. If you plan for close viewing, I think even a 2k->4k upscaling system, like all current 4k DLP Systems will deliver acceptable quality, at least as far as the pixel raster goes. Unfortunately, current 4k DLPs show very bad contrast/black level performance.

I guess we will see the first 4k-3D rather soon - with IMAX new laser projection systems.

- Carsten

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

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From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
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 - posted 01-08-2014 04:45 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Carsten Kurz
Series-II DLPs can only display 4k at max 30fps, so no HFR even with dual IMB/projection setups.
Is this actually a limitation of the TI "Series 2" DLP implementation, ICP boards, or just the current generation IMBs?

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 01-08-2014 07:05 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's a limitation of the internal signal processing pipeline. It will do 3D at 2k HFR (up to 120fps), but not 4k above 30fps. Barco has a technical paper on this.

- Carsten

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Antti Nayha
Master Film Handler

Posts: 259
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 01-16-2014 04:14 AM      Profile for Antti Nayha   Email Antti Nayha   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stefan Vogels
If you do double projection with double IMB from doremi on a single ShowVault. If it ever goes to 4K 3D you just add an second ShowVault and have it sync with the master server and send the data for the secondary projector. This way you can go to 4K 3D, HFR 3D or whatever they come up with.
Is the dual-server sync thing already a working feature in the ShowVault, or is that more like speculation? So you'd be running the same 3D DCP on both server, each sending out the picture for one eye only?

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Are you planning to play "self-made" 4K 3D content or is it just to be future proof for upcoming 4K 3D DCI content (like in your subject)?
Mainly it's about 4K 3D DCP giant screen content - DCI or not, since I think it's quite probable that the giant screen distributors will adopt some kind of a de-facto standard for that even before it gets properly standardized by DCI/SMPTE.

That said, it wouldn't hurt if the gear worked with 4K 3D alternative content, too.

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