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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Topic: 70mm reel changes vs. 35mm
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John Hawkinson
Film God
Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-08-2008 11:14 AM
Hello, Jonathan.
Please don't refer to changeover cues as "cigarette burns." Many of us find the term offensive (do a search to see why in detail; suffice it to say that it is not a standard term used by professionals in this industry).
With respect your actual questions:
The 70mm prints I've seen do indeed carry changeover cues, but I don't have a lot of 70mm experience. But special prints (such as one-offs) are more likely to not have lab-printed changeover cues, and 70mm prints are generally not produced en masse. If a particular print without cues was never run changeover, cues would never be added.
Most of us don't consider 35mm changeover cues to be particularly annoying. This is obviously a personal preference, but there's not a lot of incentive to remove them.
Some labs do omit changeover cues from 35mm prints, particularly Eclair lab in France. This can lead to significant frustration for those who run prints changeover. It also leads to projectionists incorrectly adding changeover cues with improper tools or in the wrong position, producing a result much more noticable than standard lab changeover cues.
Changeover cues are often valuable indicators of where the actual end of a reel is, either because the reel ends in a fade to black, or because the reel has been abused and frames have been cut off.
It's not clear what you mean by the "white line blip," please be more descriptive. One phenomenon that might match that description is a "negative splice," which can appear as a white line between frames. These splices, on the camera negative or some intermediate element, are required to be outside the visible frame area, and if you see them, it is most likely a framing error on the part of the projectionist. There have been a handful of cases (like The Passion of Christ) where a lab error has resulted in negative splices being visible, but those are extremely rare. I cannot recall one in the past four years.
--jhawk
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John Hawkinson
Film God
Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-08-2008 12:34 PM
(Hmm, I was mostly through typing this when Darryl posted, sorry for any duplicate information).
Can you describe this white line in more detail? Does it look like this:
in which case, it's what Chris referred to as a "chemical splice" above, though actually they are ultrasonic splices done in the labs under darkroom conditions, and are usually referred to as "lab splices."
They happen because raw stock comes on 6,000 foot rolls and release printers spit out individual reels (around 1,800 feet each) continuously, so the raw stock has to be spliced together before it goes into the printer, and thus before there is any idea of the frameline. As a result, about one in every three reels has one of these defects.
There are some differing schools of thought on what to do. Some people splice the frame out (which gives a momentarily but perceptable glitch in both the audio and picture continuity), and others thing the lab splice itself is less distracting than they side effects of such mitigation. (Do a search for "lab splice" to see these past discussions.)
--jhawk
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-08-2008 07:19 PM
Run 70mm on a platter? At the AFI/Silver? (where is Tim's laughing guy graemlin when I need it?).
While there IS a platter within the AFI/Silver facility...it is used as a back up to theatres #2 and #3 as they only have two film projectors, each. The other idea for it was if they were to have an extended run but with few shows on any given week. I think it has achieved less than 100 hours in 5-years.
In the Historic theatre at the AFI/Silver...there are 4 film projectors and no platter. All 70mm runs on reels and the reels are not built up...they run them as they were originally balanced.
It is odd that Jon used "2001" as his Uptown comparison since 2001 was World Premiered at the Uptown! I've personally shown 2001 at the Uptown in 70mm and it was, by far, the best venue to see it in.
35mm at the Uptown is indeed tough...especially "scope" As most know, I left the Uptown in 2005 when, in my belief, it was systematically downgraded in its presentation standards...it also happened to be that my regular job would have required many leave-of-absences from the theatre. As such, I left.
The projection quality there can be no better than the people that are showing the movie, the equipment in use and, to a greater extent, the company/management that sets the quality level. The equipment has fallen into dissrepair, the personel are not projectionists (including one that has made a career of it.) and the current management does not know how to run a presentation house such as the Uptown.
You have the other situation in that there is not a long term lease on the theatre. As such, nobody is going to invest heavily in it with only a few months of potential return.
Mark my words, the Uptown could, relatively easily, be returned to her former glory and, in my opinion, be one of the best venues to see a motion picture in the world, not just the Mid-Atlantic area.
And Louis is right...70mm is a must for a screen such as the Uptown's...it is over 70-feet around the arc, that is 16-feet deep and the projection throw is only 84-feet. You ARE immersed into the image with all its glory or flaws. 2K DIs will always SUCK here. Super-35 also shows every bit of grain.
I'm glad you liked the AFI's presenation of "2001." Do everyone a favor and request more 70mm shows (of as many titles as possible).
Steve
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-09-2008 07:32 AM
quote: Steve Guttag
Note too...that 70mm cues are at the same diameter, on the film, as the 35mm cues and they are often a bit on the inside. As a result, they are smaller, when projected and are rock-steady...they tend to be less noticable.
I haven't seen any 70mm for some years now except for '2001' at Bradford in March. From memory, I think the cues on most of the 70mm prints have been scribed directly on the print, rather than being printed from the interneg as most 35mm ones are. The scribed cues generally seem to be quite small, whereas many of the printed ones seem to be growing in recent years, and some are absolutely huge, and ugly, now. Of course, it's even worse on a 'scope print. Some of the printed cues I've seen have been well over 3mm in diameter. I don't know the reason for this, maybe it's a Disability Discrimination Act thing; you still have to be able to see to do a changeover even if you're almost totally blind. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) It looks really bad on screen.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-09-2008 09:07 AM
It is possible to do changeovers without any visible cues. There are a number of ways, but the most reliable I used to use was 'click strips'. This involved using a footage and frame counter to identify the two sets of four frames where the cue marks should be, and then applying one layer of splicing tape over one of those four complete frames (not with the edge of the tape across the middle of a frame, for obvious reaons). The audible 'click' as the tape goes through the projector gate acts as an alternative to the visible cues. After the show you can peel away the splicing tape with no visible evidence remaining, assuming you've used good quality tape in the first place.
When I used to get showprints, archive prints, otherwise valuable elements or ordinary prints without cues and I didn't have a scriber, I always used to use this method rather than deface the film with DIY chinagraph slashes or whatever. With some types of projector it's easier to hear the click than with others, but if you run a loop with the tape strips on so that you know what you're listening out for before the show, you shouldn't have any problem hearing them unless the ambient noise in the booth is really loud.
So it may be that the print Jonathan saw was cued using a method that did not involve on-screen cues.
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