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Oil for Philips 16mm (LYTAX)

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  • Oil for Philips 16mm (LYTAX)

    I have recently required a really vintage Philips 16mm projector (way before Kinoton made those as FP18/28/38). It's factory QC badge says 1961. Serial Nr. is 1002.
    It runs perfectly fine but I want to do an oil change (and swap the terrible 2,5 kW Vertical Philips Lamphouse).

    Which oil needs to go into that machine?

    (Notice the beautifully butchered XLR connectors under the soundhead and the removed amp meter under the lamphouse... )

    Btw, If anyone knows the exact "EL...." number of that machine that info would be appreciated. It has absolutely no model type label)
    Last edited by Sascha Roll; 05-24-2020, 06:13 AM.

  • #2
    That's an FP16. It used the same oil as the FP20/30. Shell Tellus and something on the lighter-weight side. I don't recall off hand what wight they used but probably something like 22 or possibly 15.

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    • #3
      I guess if you're looking for it in Germany, any good quality "Hydraulik├Âl" from a reputable source with a viscosity of "22" should probably do fine.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Steve Guttag View Post
        That's an FP16. It used the same oil as the FP20/30. Shell Tellus and something on the lighter-weight side. I don't recall off hand what wight they used but probably something like 22 or possibly 15.
        Thank you Steve!
        Almost at the same time another very knowledgeable technician (worked with Mr Kotte at Philips) also confirmed that Kinoton 3672 is the correct oil for the FP16 etc.
        I still have quite a few bottles of the Kinoton original oil that I bought when they sold off their inventory of 2 or 3 years ago.

        Btw, did anyone ever manage to get any decent lightoutput from that vertical lamphouse? Mine has a 2,5kW bulb in it which still looks rather Okay,
        I have to admit that the second (smaller) reflective mirror is missing in mine but everything else is intact. Still really bad lightouput.

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        • #5
          From the Film-Tech archive, "Kinoton Intermittent oil is in fact,-- Shell Tellus T37 High Performance Hydraulic Oil".

          Unfortunately, it is no longer available, at least here in the USA. You would need to hunt down the oils full specifications and find a suitable replacement.

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          • #6
            Is the drunken cam in that machine actually still OK? That's really old... I had a spare, brand new FP-16 intermittent until recently. If you need it I can direct you to the person that I gave it to. Every really old Phillips 16mm I've had in the past needed to have the cam replaced.

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            • #7
              I was told that the correct oil is Shell Tellus S2 MX 68. It's pretty different from the T37 to be honest. Shall I be concerned for my Kinoton?

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              • #8
                It was my mistake when I looked on a Shell sheet to not verify the units. T68 (ISO measure) is about 20W SAE so that sounds about right. ISO-32 is closer to 10W, which is getting on the thin side of things. I have NOT done any testing on using something that thin in the FP16. My guess is that it would do well since it is a smaller/finer clearance unit than the larger projectors. Perhaps other have done some testing. The trick with oils is getting something thin enough that it coats/protects the metals but not so thin that it breaks down and ceases to actually lubricate the parts. Too thick and it impedes lubrication/operation.

                As I recall, Century oil was about 20W. Simplex was a bit thinner (Brenkert was darn near water...on the order of sewing machine oil).

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                • #9
                  Thanks Steve - I am still a bit puzzled as there are a few claims about using T37 on the forum archives. Do you think the T68 I am using is going to be fine?

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                  • #10
                    My gut tells me that T37 should be fine. I just haven't done any testing to prove/disprove it. I've only ever run Kinoton intermittent oil in it.

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                    • #11
                      Overlooked in the conversation was the question of low light output from the vertical Xenon lamp.

                      Without the small reflector in front of the arc, there is a noticeable lessening of the intensity of light. The Zeiss XenoSol is an example of how that worked. When the small reflector is missing, there are two different focuses of the source. One is the field of light from the big reflector. The second source is from the arc plasma itself. These are not both in focus at the film plane. Placing the second smaller reflector in the lamp house shields the direct light from the plasma source and concentrates all of the light back toward the big reflector. This makes a single field of greater intensity at the film plane.

                      If you can obtain the small reflector replacement the result would be well worth the effort and cost.

                      Be certain that the film plane to main reflector distance is set correctly as that also has great impact on the intensity of projected light.

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                      • #12
                        Kenneth, Is this the condenser type glass that would be installed behind the aperture in the fp16 or an actual second reflector in the lamphouse?

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                        • #13
                          The second reflector is located directly at the arc bulb and between the bulb and the projector.

                          The lens you refer to is used for flattening the field of light across the aperture. There is also one in the Zeiss Favorit 16 machine. There may also be an angled dichroic glass at the front of the lamp house and mounted at an angle to direct heat away from the aperture.

                          All of these optics are most critical as the aperture is so small in the 16mm machines. The shutter is a very important obstruction in the light path. This becomes a problem when slowing the machine for silent film projection. Light output versus flicker are the trade offs in this instance.

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                          • #14
                            Akignment of the front spherical mirror is very critical as it is possible to focus the inverted electrode's image back on itself and burn the electrodes off

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                            • #15
                              Yes, Gordon,

                              There is a window with a screen on the back of the Zeiss so you can see the position of the main arc and the reflected image for proper alignment. I don't know about other vertical bulb lamp houses.

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