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Oil for Philips 16mm (LYTAX)

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  • Stefan Scholz
    replied
    The oil is an H 46, or MG 68, both do work. And that's between SAE 15 to 20. Tellus 37 became Tellus 337, and then international standardized denomination.
    Do not think about the lamphouse. It's absolute crap. When I was young, I watched 70 mm on that lamphouse on a 66 ft screen, in a Todd AO theatre. 70mm screenings were always way inferior to 35mm in our city district theatre. When I got the theatre, I knew why. Norelcos, Cine Apergons, these lamps. Changing for Isco curved field, and modern horizontal 5 kW Kinotone lamps, suddenly the image was perfect.
    I did not expect anything, when I saw it on the FP 16, and was right. 20" screen width, 1.3 kW, no lux. Lens Isco 20 - 60 mm. So don't think too much about it. I know, it will get a modern lamp fitted, like on the FP 18.

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  • Emiel de Jong
    replied
    I dug through some papers: Philips called this model simply FP16 indeed; there were some specific type numbers however: LCB 0016/.. suitable for arc lamp or xenon lamp house; LCB 0017/.. equipped with incandescent lamp 12v 150w ; LCB 0018/.. suitable for SPP lamp house; LCB 0019/.. equipped with 500w xenon lamp house.
    The portable version of the FP16 was the EL5100 and before that there was the portable EL5000/EL5001 with a straight gate instead of a curved one. As far as I know all these models used the same "grooved-disc" intermittents, only the housing of the intermittent is slightly different in the EL5000.
    About the recommended oil, going back in time:
    -in a later FP16 manual they say 3672 oil.
    -an earlier FP16 manual says "EL 4809=EP 90 oil".
    -an EL5100 manual says also:"EL 4809 "90 EP" oil or equivalents: Shell Spirax 90 EP, Caltex Universal Thuban 90, Mobil Mobilube GX90, Esso XP Compound 90".
    -an EL5000 service manual (I think from 1966) says the same and also warns to NEVER EVER use Molykote oil EL4805.
    -a service sheet of 1960 says that for the EL5000 projector from now on Molykote oil M55 (=EL4805) will be used instead of EL4800.
    -then a still older EL5000 manual says indeed "EL4800 graphited oil".
    So I guess it is best to follow the most recent recommendation (the 3672 oil). And clearly something went wrong in the early 1960's with the Molykote oil. But why were all these different oils recommended after another, anyone has an idea? Or were there maybe differences in construction (materials?) of the intermittent?

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  • Kenneth Wuepper
    replied
    Great suggestion Gordon. The older the technology the greater risk of damage through misunderstanding the engineering.

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  • Gordon McLeod
    replied
    Ken that is correct about the view port used it many times. On the Cinemecanica verticals one would hold a compact mirror behind the lamp to allow one to see the convergance. The reason i mentioned it was a caution to people who have never worked with them

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  • Kenneth Wuepper
    replied
    Yes, Gordon,

    There is a window with a screen on the back of the Zeiss so you can see the position of the main arc and the reflected image for proper alignment. I don't know about other vertical bulb lamp houses.

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  • Gordon McLeod
    replied
    Akignment of the front spherical mirror is very critical as it is possible to focus the inverted electrode's image back on itself and burn the electrodes off

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  • Kenneth Wuepper
    replied
    The second reflector is located directly at the arc bulb and between the bulb and the projector.

    The lens you refer to is used for flattening the field of light across the aperture. There is also one in the Zeiss Favorit 16 machine. There may also be an angled dichroic glass at the front of the lamp house and mounted at an angle to direct heat away from the aperture.

    All of these optics are most critical as the aperture is so small in the 16mm machines. The shutter is a very important obstruction in the light path. This becomes a problem when slowing the machine for silent film projection. Light output versus flicker are the trade offs in this instance.

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  • Sean McKinnon
    replied
    Kenneth, Is this the condenser type glass that would be installed behind the aperture in the fp16 or an actual second reflector in the lamphouse?

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  • Kenneth Wuepper
    replied
    Overlooked in the conversation was the question of low light output from the vertical Xenon lamp.

    Without the small reflector in front of the arc, there is a noticeable lessening of the intensity of light. The Zeiss XenoSol is an example of how that worked. When the small reflector is missing, there are two different focuses of the source. One is the field of light from the big reflector. The second source is from the arc plasma itself. These are not both in focus at the film plane. Placing the second smaller reflector in the lamp house shields the direct light from the plasma source and concentrates all of the light back toward the big reflector. This makes a single field of greater intensity at the film plane.

    If you can obtain the small reflector replacement the result would be well worth the effort and cost.

    Be certain that the film plane to main reflector distance is set correctly as that also has great impact on the intensity of projected light.

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  • Steve Guttag
    replied
    My gut tells me that T37 should be fine. I just haven't done any testing to prove/disprove it. I've only ever run Kinoton intermittent oil in it.

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  • Marco Giustini
    replied
    Thanks Steve - I am still a bit puzzled as there are a few claims about using T37 on the forum archives. Do you think the T68 I am using is going to be fine?

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  • Steve Guttag
    replied
    It was my mistake when I looked on a Shell sheet to not verify the units. T68 (ISO measure) is about 20W SAE so that sounds about right. ISO-32 is closer to 10W, which is getting on the thin side of things. I have NOT done any testing on using something that thin in the FP16. My guess is that it would do well since it is a smaller/finer clearance unit than the larger projectors. Perhaps other have done some testing. The trick with oils is getting something thin enough that it coats/protects the metals but not so thin that it breaks down and ceases to actually lubricate the parts. Too thick and it impedes lubrication/operation.

    As I recall, Century oil was about 20W. Simplex was a bit thinner (Brenkert was darn near water...on the order of sewing machine oil).

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  • Marco Giustini
    replied
    I was told that the correct oil is Shell Tellus S2 MX 68. It's pretty different from the T37 to be honest. Shall I be concerned for my Kinoton?

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  • Mark Gulbrandsen
    replied
    Is the drunken cam in that machine actually still OK? That's really old... I had a spare, brand new FP-16 intermittent until recently. If you need it I can direct you to the person that I gave it to. Every really old Phillips 16mm I've had in the past needed to have the cam replaced.

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  • Mitchell Dvoskin
    replied
    From the Film-Tech archive, "Kinoton Intermittent oil is in fact,-- Shell Tellus T37 High Performance Hydraulic Oil".

    Unfortunately, it is no longer available, at least here in the USA. You would need to hunt down the oils full specifications and find a suitable replacement.

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