Shaky 16mm film digitization

[Alex Meregaglia]

I'm digitizing a reel of 16mm film on an Elmo TRV-16G but the image on the resulting conversion is very shaky and unstable. The sound, however, is mostly fine and not distorted.

I've used this machine previously with success, but the film itself looks fine and without obvious issue. So I'm not sure if the issue is from the machine or the film.

You can see the shaky result here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Cw?usp=sharing

Thanks in advance!

[Kenneth Wuepper]

Does the picture look steady when you see it on a screen?

If it is steady when projected on a screen then let us know so we can analyze more fully.

It actually looks like a loss of the lower loop after the intermittent and shutter.

There is also massive flutter in the sound indicating likewise the loss of the loop.

[Jim Cassedy]

Ken Wuepper wondered:

Does the picture look steady when you see it on a screen?

I've used one of these projectors- - there is no "screen". The TRV-16G has direct video & audio outputs.
There's definitely a loss of synchronization between the pull-down & the TV scanning system.
Like Kenneth, I can also hear more than an acceptable amount of flutter in the sound track, leading me to also believe that there is either something amiss with your threading, or perhaps your automatic loop-setter is constantly operating. Just out of curiosity, do you have a different film you can test it with. While Elmos are pretty good at handling film, I've had a couple that did just hand shrunken film well which resulted in the automatic loop-setter constantly snubbing against the lower loop. (and snce it looks like your're transferring an older reel of film, it's possible its shrunk too much for the Elmo to handle) . Check you threading, although I realize that this projector is a slot-load, so it's almost impossible to thread it wrong. Try a different, perhaps newer reel of film,and see if it makes a difference.

[Kenneth Wuepper]

Since it is a slot loader, it is possible for the gate to hang open and cause this effect. The focus would also be very bad in that case.

[Phillip Grace]

There are a couple of things I would look for.
It is a slot load projector and it looks like it has not threaded itself correctly - possibly the mechanism is gummed up with old grease. The two halves of the gate should be properly closed and there should be loops of film above and below it when the film is running. (Have you turned the operating knob fully clockwise?)
Also, there is a series of rubber rollers associated with the soundhead which are inclined to decompose with age and become sticky, which upsets the film motion at the sound pick-up.

The pull-down is definitely out of sync with the scanning system, and I'm suggesting the problem is mechanical. However the video system is NTSC, which is outside my experience. The 24 - 30 fps conversion process may be an issue - depending on how it is dealt with in this machine. In respect of interlaced video systems expressions like "incorrect field dominance" come to mind. I would be looking for a mechanical issue first, as it can be easily seen and reasonably easily corrected, and at this stage all film equipment may be suffering the effects of wear and age.

[Alex Meregaglia]

Thanks for everyone's response. I agree that it's a mechanical issue: I just re-digitized a portion of a film I successfully digitized on this same machine 2.5 years ago -- the resulting capture now shows the same problem as the film from my first post.

There are no loops of film when the film is running; the projector sort of stutters to pull the film in.

What's the best way to clean the grease and/or get access to look the rubber rollers and the gate? Just unscrew the housing?

[Marcel Birgelen]

Do those machines have a shutter? Or do they just scan the image while the transport is resting?

Since this is a more "budget" machine, I suppose it doesn't have an image buffer and therefore still uses a mechanical shutter and to me it looks like this one is not closing for whatever reason.

You can clearly see the "full frame" centered as a kind of ghost image, but you also see some other ghost images being squeezed. The squeezed frames you see are probably from a "scan" from the camera, while the film is being transported.

[Phillip Grace]

Remove the plastic covers from the film path. The machine should run without them. Go through the whole process of threading and running the film and you should be able to see what is happening. A bit of careful exploration should reveal the problem.

[Gary A. Hoselton]

Yes, from your description, it seems the projector is not forming required loop of film above the gate and below it, to change steady motion to intermittent motion and back to steady motion. Seems like some film damage may be occurring. Yes, remove the front covers so you can see what is going on, and load junk film if available. If your machine came from Spokane, might be worth a long day-trip up there on freeway to have it looked at.

[Mitchell Dvoskin]

The Elmo TVR projectors use the same film transport as the CL series. If there is no or insufficient loops, then the “thread to run” mechanism is probably not moving everything in the film path properly when you turn the knob, or if it is and the TVR is loosing it’s bottom loop then something is wrong with the pull down. I agree with the people above that you need to remove the operator side covers to see what is going on.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Another redundant comment here.

This TRV is very projector-based telecine system. Also in the most basic form as well - a small built in video camera pointing at the film gate to capture the image to spit out the video feed. Nothing more, nothing less.

The sample video clearly shows the loss of lower loop. There are about a dozen of reasons for that to happen. So yes - just open the cover and have a look inside while threading/running the machine should give some idea what's going on, and what's wrong.

BTW I still have no understanding why this TRV still get pretty high price in 2nd hand market, 2-3k$ sometimes. For that price one can easily find the modern equivalent with 2K real frame-by-frame scanner, instead of blurry SD machine with 90's technology.

[Leo Enticknap]

Agreed completely. If you're willing to accept SD, you could get a used first generation MWA Flashscan, or a MovieStuff machine of a similar vintage, for around that price point. Around $5k gets you 2K, though not scanning in real time.

[Brad Miller]

Oh no, definitely do NOT buy a MovieStuff scanner! They are total garbage, and are such poor quality you have to do all sorts of digital processing just to make the image somewhat acceptable.

I bought one to do some home movie scanning and found out that it was directly misrepresented by the manufacturer and the owner is an outright asshole who 100% screwed me over on the purchase with blatant lies and then empty promises which of course never happened. I would have gotten more enjoyment out of physically burning those several thousand bucks than buying that worthless machine.

Other cheap scanners like the infamous Wolverine are also garbage, but at least they don't make fraudulent claims to be something that they aren't.

In the end I bought the 8mm upgrade kit to our Lasergraphics 6.5K HDR scanner.

[Leo Enticknap]

I'm not a fan of them either, though all but the very earliest models would still be an improvement on a claw-in-the-gate, intermittent movement Elmo. MWA-Nova and Lasergraphics are both much of a likeness at their price points in the market. My point is that if you want a small gauge movie film scanner and are willing to settle for NTSC or PAL resolution, no way do you need to pay as much as $2-3K.

[Kim Trampus]

I know a guy in Florida that has come up with an hd upgrade for the Elmo Trv-16. He is using a raspberry pi camera with a global shutter to eliminate any ghosting. See the thread below.

https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/vbb/f...-rpi-hd-camera