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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Schinler's List Red Girl Scene (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Schinler's List Red Girl Scene
Demetris Thoupis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1240
From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 12-17-2002 02:19 PM      Profile for Demetris Thoupis   Email Demetris Thoupis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Again,
A school asked for a special show of Schindler's List for the film club. During the show I noticed at the scene where Liam Neeson is overlooking the Getto takeover and watching the young girl in the red dress, each time the shot changes from Liam to the coloured girl, there is a splice. I know is a bit old film but can anyone explain why?
Demetris

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6425
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-17-2002 02:45 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IF I remember right... "Schindler" was filmed and printed on black and white stock for most of the movie. The few scenes that are supposed to be in color were filmed on color stock. Thus, when there's a transition between b/w and color there is a splice because that's where they joined the two stocks in the release print.

They could have just made the negatives in B/W and printed to color stock but that wouldn't have given as good a result as if they had used black and white print film.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1381
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-17-2002 02:56 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think a better solution would have been to print most of the film on B&W stock, but use all color stock for that one sequence (instead of cutting back and forth). true, the B&W shots in this sequence would look a little different, but the problem was, that unless the theatre was using DTS (I THINK that was the only format for the film), the constant cuts would have been distracting. Also, many theatres had projectors that JUMPED at every splice anyway (including one I saw the film from). I also remember this film opening and closing in color.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 12-17-2002 02:58 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Didn't they do the general release (North America) on all color stock due to the focus shift between stocks? Besides simply being different stock there are heat issues with B&W film as the silver image absorbs IR while on color film the IR sails right on through the dye image (this being the reason for special handling during processing of the analog soundtrack region of color film to retain the silver in that area).

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-17-2002 04:29 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wrote about the focus issues with intercutting color and B&W film in Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People", Spring 1994:

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5033.pdf

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 12-17-2002 05:54 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nope, it was Black and White mixed with color film for the sequences that had the color mixed in. If they had printed the black and white onto color for the entire film it would of had that tinted feel to it. That movie also shedded like a son of o bitch with extreme dandruff. [Smile]

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-17-2002 06:01 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The initial release was Black and White stock with the color bits spliced in. After 4-weeks they replaced all the prints with color stock prints. There as a visual difference. The black and white stock looked much better. And yes, they shreaded like a bitch.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10701
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 12-17-2002 06:22 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The print of "Schindler's List" I watched at GCC Northpark Mall theater in Dallas was a mix of B&W and color stock. But I remember the visual difference being apparant in whole reels.

The first and last reels of the movie, as well as the reel with the "red dress" cue in it were color stock. Those reels had kind of a slightly blue-ish tint to them that looked different from the rest of the film. All the other reels had black and white stock --at least I am pretty darned sure of it. The look of it gave me art school flashbacks from foundation year and all that B&W still work I had to do. I can still remember that wierd pickle smell of the chemicals to this day. Nonetheless, "Schindler's List" looked excellent at that theater.

If the entire print that played at Northpark in Dallas was on color stock, then there was some kind of serious color timing problem with certain reels.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-17-2002 06:29 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All three prints i saw (GCC Beverly Connection, Los Angeles, Edwards Town Center, Valencia, and UA East Hills, Bakersfield) were with the B&Wn prints with the color sequences spliced in. Focusing seemed to be a problem at all three theatres, as were the jumps with the splicing. Fortunately all three theatres were running DTS systems.

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 12-17-2002 06:54 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I ran Schindler's list when first released, three shows per day for four months. It was our second DTS film. The girl in the red coat,
the candle lighting at the kiddush blessing near the end, and the final scene at the cemetery are the color shots I remember.
I don't remember any distraction caused by splices. Nor was their any shedding of the print in the Century JJ.

Incidentally, several classes from a neighborhood school were brought to the theatre by their teachers who developed a unit on the historical subject. I started a bulletin board of photos, reviews, comments and clippings on the filmmaker, the film, and the subject. It grew to some twelve feet in length in the lobby, and when the feature shipped out, I donated the display to the school. We received a second, edited set of DTS disks, so I kept the first set as a souvenir. The manager kept those of our first DTS--Jurassic Park.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5198
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-17-2002 10:17 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't quite understand why there would be a problem with analog sound at the splices. I make splices every day and they are totally silent on the analog track. I take it all the color sequences had to be manually spliced in, no? No automation doing the inserts, right? So you just need good splicers, good splicing tape and someone who has been trained well. When considering that there had to be upwards of thousands of prints for this engagement and each with, what was it, 3 or 4 sequences? This must have been one daunting project. Surely it wasn't left up to Technicolor to splice in the color sequences, was it?

Personally I thought the switch to color was way out in left field -- much too much of a gimmick and a distraction calling attention to itself, and I didn't think it fit the feel of the rest of the film. It works in WIZARD OF OZ and PLEASANTVILLE, but not here. But that's just my taste. Plus, I feel sorry for those hundreds of TES employees splicing all those reels and trying to keep rolls of B&W and color segments all in order. That must have looked like a Marxs Brothers sequence itself. [Smile]

Frank

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1381
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-17-2002 10:22 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
THere were some cheap projectors out there that caused the image to jump at every splice (even when splicing reels together). Why I don't know. I can't really say what the movie sounded like in analog, since all screenings I saw were in DTS. Of course focusing was off a bit, due to the thinner nature of the b&W film (theatres received bulletins to notify theaters of some of these problems, but apparently went unheeded in some cases...what a surprise!

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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 12-18-2002 04:42 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gerard wrote:

quote:

the candle lighting at the kiddush blessing near the end

Wasn't this at the start of the film? I don't remember a similar scene near the end, but it's several years since I last saw the film.

The prints we had here in the uk were spliced, at least the ones I saw were. The trailer was printed on Agfa stock, and I'm almost certain that the prints were as well. The negative edge print was Kodak, I don't know which lab made the prints, but they looked supurb. The colour scenes were a problem, There was a very clear difference in the look of the film where it was printed on colour stock, you could always tell when the girl in the red coat was about to be seen as a few seconds before, at the start of the scene, the colour stock would cut in, the image would take on an unpleasant greenish tone, and the look of dye was quite different to that of silver. I don't know what the answer is to this problem; I would hate to have seen the whole film printed on colour stock. Maybe the whole film could be printed on black and white stock, and the red coat added by dye transfer, a bit like a modern-day Pathecolour, but Technicolor weren't doing dye transfer at the time. I have the laserdisc of the film, and they have managed to match the scenes quite well in the video transfer, but I don't know what that was made from.

A few years ago in the Projected Picture Trust exhibit at Bletchley Park, a print was being run which had been made for the now closed Museum of the Moving Image, in London. This print contained short clips from various films, mainly black and white, but had obviously been printed on colour stock. I asked Charles Beddow about this, and he said that it was done because there were problems with running black and white stock on the continuous loop platters in use at the museum. Does anyone know what these problems may have been. Leo, maybe you know something about this.

I saw the film twice, once in DTS, and once in SR, and there were no problems with the sound in either case. I also projected the film once, using the analogue track, again without problems. I made a point of listening for any difference in sound between the silver only and silver plus dye parts of the track; you don't often get to hear a pure silver print of a modern track. There was a slight difference, but I don't think I would have noticed it if I wasn't looking for it. There were no pops, clicks etc. at the splices, I don't remember if they were blooped or not.

The first can contained a printed request that the film be shown without an interval wherever possible. Unfortunately, this was not possible at this venue, as it now has only a single projector, and the tower can't take a film of this length.. I seem to remember that, strangely, two versions of one part were supplied, one with an intermission title on the end, and the other without; I've never seen this done before.

Mention has been made of the prints shedding bady. Does this mean that the prints were polyester? If so, did this apply to both black and white and colour stocks? I'm pretty sure that the British prints were triacetate.

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Stan Gunn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 176
From: Clematis, in the hills near Melbourne Australia
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 12-18-2002 04:53 AM      Profile for Stan Gunn   Author's Homepage   Email Stan Gunn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I ran list on its release here in oz.
It was all on colour stock, the word at the time was that it presented many problems in the processing. [eyes]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-18-2002 08:42 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As I recall, the prints were triacetate. It was especially important to edgewax the B&W prints (SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151) to minimize emulsion-side shedding in some projectors. I wrote about the issues with B&W and "Schindler's List" in the October 1994 issue of Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People":

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5034.pdf

Black-and-white images can be printed onto color film, but the image will usually have a slight tint, since color print film is optimized for color images, with slightly warm highlights and cool shadows. Even one "printer point" of color variation in the printer setup is noticeable with a black-and-white image printed to a color print.

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