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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: Unwell 1999 Honda Civic - thoughts appreciated
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 03-30-2013 12:45 PM
Last summer my fiancee's car started to act up. The speedometer would start to bounce up and down uncontrollably, while at the same time the electric door locking would constantly lock and unlock the doors in an endless loop. After about 30 seconds of this, the speedo would settle at zero, but the car would continue to work normally in all other respects. When the car was next started from cold, the speedo would work for the first 10-20 minutes of driving, and then start to act up again.
After a couple of weeks of this, the engine suddenly stopped in the middle of one of these episodes. It would not restart immediately, but when she tried again after a couple of minutes it did so. She drove it straight to the garage that normally services it, who said that they 'did a computer test on it' (by which I'm guessing they meant plugged a fault code reader in), diagnosed a 'bad capacitor' and replaced it.
But this didn't solve the problem - the episodes started happening again - and the garage wanted several hundred dollars to go through it with a fine tooth comb. At this point (September last year), she bought a new car. The old one has been sitting in the garage ever since.
We had a talk about what to do with it a couple of nights ago, and decided that I would have one go at trying to diagnose the fault before we admitted defeat and gave it away to charity (as a 14 year-old car with 145k miles, it would probably be impossible to sell with the fault). The car is otherwise in very good condition - not even a trace of corrosion on the bodywork, and it had a new battery, radiator and four new tyres in the year before the fault happened - so we would at least like to have a shot at fixing it. So I've just given it a thorough visual examination of everything I can without jacking it up (we don't have any jack or axle stands in the garage) - all connection modules, fluid leaks and hose joints etc.), and some looking at online forums, and established the following.
Problems I found when looking at the car:
The relay for the electric windows was very loose - had almost popped out its socket.
There is a lot of corrosion on the clamps that attach to the battery terminals, and the grease has dried up to powder. The battery is flat as a pancake (reading 7.1 volts) - not surprising, given that the car hasn't been started for six months.
There is some green, corrosion-type goo all over the connector to the vehicle speed sensor that inserts into the transmission. I needed a big pair of pliers to get it off (as the actress said to the bishop...).
The transmission oil level is very low - right on the minimum mark on the dipstick.
From reading online Honda enthusiasts' forums, the consensus of opinion seems to be that the speed sensors are notorious for failing, causing the speedo to stop working. I haven't read anything about this causing the electronic door locking to go crazy: but given that when things work normally, the doors lock automatically when the speed goes above 10mph, this seems to me to be connected (excuse the pun). From this and the fact that there is corrosion damage on the connector module on this car, I've decided to replace the sensor and the connector as a starting point. I've now ordered them, plus a battery charger and some Honda transmission oil. If the sensor isn't the problem, well, we're only down by $26, and from what I've seen online, these things fail so often anyway that even if the existing one is OK, the chances are high that it won't be for much longer.
Just wondered if there is anything else glaringly obvious that I'm missing? All the other relays and fuses are OK and I can't find any obviously visible fault in any other connector.
Strangely, my other half tells me that the check engine light did not come on when the fault happened. She's absolutely certain about that. I can only assume that the bulb in that light is dead, because I can't understand how a fault like that would not be picked up by the engine management computer.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 03-30-2013 03:25 PM
quote: Sean McKinnon
Question: does the car lock/unlock the doors when you put into and out off park? I would try changing the battery terminals and the battery.
I've cleaned the terminals with a wire brush and IPA (isopropyl alcohol, not India pale ale!), and they're now nice and shiny. The battery will have to wait until the charger currently en route from Amazon arrives, hopefully on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. The battery was only around six months old when the problems began, so I'm hoping that it can still be salvaged. The charger I ordered has a feature for charging up batteries that have been allowed to discharge totally without causing further damage (multiple reviews on Amazon say that it works wonders at this), and so fingers crossed on that one.
quote: Sean McKinnon
If you check all the easy stuff and don't get it rectified you may have to cut your losses on it because you could spend a lot of time and money and never get it resolved.
Agreed completely, and if the intermittent short is in one of the wiring looms, the time and money needed to track that down will not be funny.
I'm hopeful that the intermittent short and/or broken connection is in the connector to the speed sensor, given that there is clearly visible corrosion damage on it. But maybe that's wishful thinking.
quote: Sean McKinnon
I would check the starting relay and I would look to see if the car has a "body control module" that controls the electronics like the door locks.
Starter solenoid tests OK, and as far as I know there is no separate control module for the body electronics - just one management computer.
If it turns out not to be the speed sensor then I think it's time to throw in the towel, not least because to investigate any further I'd really need a code reader and a Haynes manual. A battery charger is something that we should have in the garage anyway, and as Olivia's new car is also a Honda, the transmission oil won't be wasted either. But I agree completely that with intermittent faults, you run the risk of spending a lot of time and money on wild goose chases, and the time comes when you have to cut your losses.
Many thanks for the pointers - more will be revealed when I've got the battery back to life.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 03-31-2013 02:37 PM
quote: Sean McKinnon
I have learned the hard way that allowing a car battery to fully discharge can damage it.
I've heard that, too - in the final stages of discharge a lead-acid battery can get so hot that the electrode plates bend, in extreme cases causing them to short against each other and the electrolyte to boil. There isn't any visible damage on this one, and the charger I've ordered has been reviewed by another buyer as being able to desulfate a totally dead battery.
I am kicking myself - when it became clear that the car was going to be in storage for months, I should have disconnected the battery when I was staying with Olivia over Christmas. Oh well - no use in crying over spilt milk.
quote: Sean McKinnon
You should also test for a/c in the output of your alternator...
Many thanks - will do when I've got power into the car and got it started.
I'm a bit cagey about buying a new battery on spec, because if, ultimately, the problem is an intermittent short buried deep in some wiring loom, or something similar that it's just not worth putting the time and money into cracking on a high mileage car that old, I don't want to get into a situation of "I'll just try that $60 solution to see if it works, and then swap out that $80 part", etc. etc. So the plan I'm formulating for when the parts arrive next week is:
1. Replace speed sensor and connector.
2. Top up transmission oil.
3. Attempt to charge battery; see if charger's inbuilt electronics thinks that it's OK.
4. If battery appears to take a full charge OK, reconnect it, start car and check alternator output.
5. Allow engine to warm up to operating temperature, then take for 20 minute test drive in local vicinity.
6. If successful, take for a longer test drive. If still successful, declare car fixed.
7. If problem recurs during test drive, utter R-rated language very loudly.
8. Borrow battery from new Honda and see if that makes the problem go away.
9. If that cures it, buy new battery for old Honda.
10. If the problem is still present, put it down to experience, give old Honda to charity and get tax receipt.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 04-01-2013 11:13 AM
quote: Monte L. Fullmer
With the speedo bouncing like it is, time for a new speedo cable since the flex cable inside the sheath ready to come apart inside the casing...or just needs to be relubed with "Film-Guard", or similar...
I couldn't say for sure without either major surgery or looking at a Haynes manual, but I don't think there is any mechanical linkage between the transmission and the speedo at all - the instrument cluster is driven purely electrically, and takes an electrical signal from the speed sensor, which tells the computer what the road speed of the car is (I'm guessing that one revolution of the cog momentarily closes a circuit, and that = one revolution of the drive axle), thereby enabling the computer to send the correct signal to the speedo, and to tell the doors to lock as the car picks up speed. It might also tell the transmission when to change, or that might be done by engine revs - don't know. In other words, I'm guessing that the arrangement is an Airbus-style 'fly by wire' one, so to speak.
quote: Sam Graham
Might as well also make sure the ground strap is tight and secure. I've had a couple of old cars where it wasn't and that solved a host of problems.
There are several ground straps from various bits of the engine block to the front and driver's side panel, and they looked OK to me. But I will undo them, clear off accumulated dirt with a wire brush and reassemble with copper grease in the threads - thanks.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 04-01-2013 05:44 PM
quote: Buck Wilson
Turns out it was TOO bright, I really should've tested the voltage on the first start-up but live and learn. That brand new alternator ended up frying every circuit board on the car including the ECM along with several fuses.
I once had a similar problem with a projector lamphouse. We were getting a super bright picture, and even compliments from regular customers at how great the image looked in screen 2, waiting until a movie moved from 1 to 2 to see it, etc.
Alarm bells started ringing when the lamp failed at around 500 hours - blackening on the envelope and flylead, and the thing wouldn't strike. The provenance of that bulb was unknown - it was the first one on the opening of a new theatre, and we didn't know whether it was new or had been recycled from somewhere else. So we assumed that it had actually done quite a few hours before we got it, replaced the bulb and the shows went on.
Then the second one died at around the 500 hour mark, too. To cut a very long story short, it turned out that the ammeter on the back of the lamphouse was bad, and that when we thought that 23 amps was going through that lamp, it was more like 35-40. Again, you live and learn: it just didn't occur to either of us that this could be the problem, and in fact it was the last thing we checked.
So frustrating waiting for the sensor to arrive...
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Mike Blakesley
Film God
Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 04-02-2013 08:32 PM
quote: Sean McKinnon
Maybe Mike B. can shed some light on how these reman parts work? I think he runs an auto parts store as well as a cinema.
Maybe you were over-estimating a bit about reman parts failing, but 30 to 50% is WAY out of line. Our defective rate here for reman items floats around 2 or 3% and that's mostly for alternators and starters because they have a two-year warranty. We virtually never have a reman water pump or wiper motor come back. (We have a Carquest store.) To be fair, we don't sell very many wiper motors since in this dry country, you hardly ever have to use your wipers. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
At least from what I've been told by suppliers, a remanufactured item contains MOSTLY new interior parts; like in a starter, usually only the outside casing will be re-used; all the other parts will be new unless the starter was in extremely good shape before it was rebuilt, in which case some other parts might be re-used. Of course I can't prove any of this, it's just what we've been told by the sales guys.
Something else to keep in mind is what "line" you are buying. Most parts stores (including ours) have a first line and a second line for many items. The first line is the best quality; second line is cheaper but not as good. (More re-used parts.) Many stores, trying to compete on price, will quote the second-line items by default. So if you're getting a lot of defects, ask the dealer if you are buying the best possible line they stock.
A lot of alternators fail because the battery was low when the rebuilt alternator was installed -- the battery should be fully charged before you run the vehicle after putting an alternator in.
Supposedly, a lot of "bad" alternators really aren't bad at all, they just come back with a "not charging" complaint when it was really the battery's fault. Similarly, a lot of "bad" starters are returned when the problem was really somewhere else in the electrical system. So a certain number of "reman" units are probably just cleaned-up "defective" units that were never really defective in the first place. Of course any reman unit has to go through a long list of tests before it gets shipped out to the stores.
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