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Author Topic: 16mm - Is this possible/feasible Peter Berrett Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 602 From: Victoria, Australia Registered: Nov 2000 posted 06-22-2006 07:29 AM                        Hi all I have a 16mm projector but have never been impressed with the optical sound. Also many older 16mm films you can buy have gone pink and are, compared to dvds, expensive. However would the following idea be practical in a home setting? We will ignore copyright issues for a moment - I am just interested in whether it is technically possible. First you buy a dvd of your favourite movie - in my case "What's Up Doc". Next you, using a dark room,project the image on a screen and then using a 16mm camera make a 16mm recording of the film. You record the sound using a digital format on the 16mm optical soundtrack. Finally you get the film developed and project it in your home. Feasible? Regards Peter  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 06-22-2006 07:39 AM                     There would be some difficulty in keeping the picture and sound in sync, especially if the film had some splices (sections removed.) I knew a guy who had developed a system to use the existing soundtrack itself on a flim as a 'sync generator' which might be workable for a project like this, if someone really wanted to do it.  |  IP: Logged John Koutsoumis Master Film Handler Posts: 261 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Registered: Aug 2003 posted 06-22-2006 09:45 AM                     I like 16mm and wish it was continued as an alternative distribution format but why don't you just project the DVD and watch that. High end DLP projectors and DVD players give incredible results in the home. And if you are a fan of the classics it's a must. But yeah there's something about watching 16mm... Sound on 16mm can be fantastic. Depends on the print (they vary a lot) and the projector sound head. Plus if you film it on 16mm neg film as opposed to reversal the print will be a bit pricey and not really worth it. Also the camera film rolls are not that long. Maybe 1000ft max, even if that.  |  IP: Logged Brian Michael Weidemann Expert cat molester Posts: 944 From: Costa Mesa, CA United States Registered: Feb 2004 posted 06-22-2006 10:45 AM                        Harder than keeping picture and sound synchronized would be trying to capture the projection without horrible flickering problems. The difference of DVD/television frame rates to a film camera frame rate would produce an unwatchable image, I would reckon, that would make the challenge of your project hardly worth the effort. I'm sure there are ways it COULD be done, though.  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 06-22-2006 11:13 AM                     You can shoot most LCD monitors which will yield a flickerless picture.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 06-22-2006 11:56 AM                        Technically feasible (the picture part, at least) but horrendously expensive and for no obvious benefit, I'd have thought. Two hours worth of 16mm raw stock plus processing would cost a couple of grand at least. If your source is a DVD, what projected picture quality benefit would there be making a DIY kinescope to 16mm over just projecting the DVD? It would just be throwing money away, I'd have thought.  |  IP: Logged Ian Price Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1714 From: Denver, CO Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-22-2006 02:25 PM                     A friend of mine ran his 35mm, mono print of 2001 A Space Odyssey along with the matrixed Dolby sound out of his Laservision player, as an experiment. The player was right next to his seat. It played perfectly in sync, only needing a bump every now and then at reel changes.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 06-22-2006 03:11 PM                        Years ago I ran Carl Davis silents with the sound from a hi-fi VHS. As the projectors both had inverters on them, we rigged up TV monitors next to the machines, and simply adjusted the projector speed on the fly so that the two stayed roughly in sync, simply by cross-checking what was on the TV with what we could see through the portholes. Of course, being music only and with no attempt at lip sync needed, there was a greater margin of error for what would 'look OK'. OK, the audio was only 2.0, but the shows looked and sounded pretty good IMHO.  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 06-23-2006 06:30 AM                       You would have a film of a television picture. Every glorious line. FWIW, if the camera shutter is 144 deg. or less (I think it is), you will not have vertical retrace problems with NTSC. (Not sure about the format in your country, Peter.)  |  IP: Logged Ron Curran Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 504 From: Springwood NSW Australia Registered: Feb 2006 posted 06-23-2006 06:45 AM                        Australia has the PAL system but many players can handle NTSC as well.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 06-23-2006 08:29 AM                        Transferring PAL either way is dead easy, with no need to mess around with pulldowns. Just increase the camera (kinescope) or telecine speed to 25fps and that will just scan each frame twice for each 50hz cycle. 99% of punters won't notice the difference. You can't get away with that using NTSC, because you'd end up with 30fps (60hz), which people would notice.  |  IP: Logged Cameron Glendinning Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 845 From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia Registered: Dec 2005 posted 06-23-2006 08:49 PM                     20 years ago I use to film TV sets when I worked at australias ABC TV Channel 2, They were called kini's I think, we did them so video footage could be used in film based production at the editing stage. at a time when all shows (except news)location productions were shot and produced on 16mm. Pal @ 25 frames per sec, depending on what style of camera, one had watch for the rolling scan line in the viewfinder, with some if you could see it in the viewfinder it was not on the film, with others what you saw was what you got. Apart from NASA footage the results were not too exciting. The cost? today 10 minutes of 16mm film neg is probably $350, prossesing and workprint the same (all up $700) now how long is the movie?. Reversal Film would be cheaper but lesser quality. A Trip to officeworks and you could buy a $899 W/S DLP 4 colourwheel Video Projector that would look better than a kini. DVD in Progressive Scan mode for video projection can look pretty good. [ 06-26-2006, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]  |  IP: Logged Peter Berrett Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 602 From: Victoria, Australia Registered: Nov 2000 posted 06-24-2006 01:21 AM                        quote: Cameron Glendinning The cost? today 10 minutes of 16mm film neg is probably $350, prossesing and workprint the same (all up $700) now how long is the movie?. Reversal Film would be cheaper but lesser quality. A Trip to officeworks and you could buy a $899 W/S DLP 4 colourwheel Video Projector that would look better than a kini. DVD in Progressive Scan mode for video projection can look pretty good. Sounds tempting. I have heard though that DLP projectors suffer from the "Rainbow Effect". Would it not be better to go with an LCD projector? Regards Peter  |  IP: Logged Ian Price Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1714 From: Denver, CO Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-24-2006 01:44 AM                     Only some people notice the "Rainbow Effect" on single chip DLP projectors. I'm not one of them. Also, the newer 7-segment color wheels are said to greatly reduce the "Rainbow Effect." See if you can try before you buy. Every video projector is a trade off of some sort. I like the pixel density and small void area of DLP vs the better color, smoother motion and larger void area of LCD. To my eyes LCD looks more like video. DLP looks more like a comic book.  |  IP: Logged John Koutsoumis Master Film Handler Posts: 261 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Registered: Aug 2003 posted 06-24-2006 01:48 AM                     quote: Cameron Glendinning A Trip to officeworks and you could buy a $899 W/S DLP 4 colourwheel Video Projector that would look better than a kini. Maybe but it will still look like crap. Better leave that one in the office. I've been watching films on DLP projector (DreamVision DL500) for 3 years now where I work and hardly notice any rainbow effect. Might be there but you don't see it all the time. You have to spend at min $5000 (australian) for a decent DLP. LCD to me just ain't as good.  |  IP: Logged

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