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Author Topic: External Firewire Hard Discs - Need Opinions Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-27-2003 12:13 PM                     I'm having some headaches trying to capture MiniDV-format video to my computer, and I think the main culprit is the hard disc installed in my nearly 3-year old Dell PC. The IDE drive apparently does not have the oomph to sustain the nearly 4MB/sec rate required for MiniDV. So I wind up with video that has dropped frames and even captured past the out point I set on timecode. On the surface, it would seem that getting an external Firewire hard disc might solve the problem. But I cannot find any definitive proof from web-searching that such a drive will do the trick. Do any Film-Tech members have any experience with this? Some might suggest buying a new computer. I'm not buying a new computer for at least several more months. Prices for things like Serial ATA hard drives and good video cards are too high right now. And there's a number of pending developments that make the act of buying a new computer right now not that great an idea. Finally, just as a troubleshooting measure, does it matter if you have a Firewire card hooked up to the computer's power supply or not? I can't pull one of my free power supply connectors all the way down to attach to the Belkin PCI Firewire card. But that wouldn't seem to matter. My camcorder only attaches via a 4-pin I-Link cable, not a 6-pin jack providing power. Most external Firewire hard discs have 6-pin jacks; however, they also typically have their own external power hook up too. Anyway, I need some input about this issue. Firewire drives from Lacie, Maxtor, Western Digital, etc. all cost over $200. So I want to be sure if I spend that money it will be a good investment.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 09-27-2003 12:56 PM                     Bobby, would the new hard drives with 8 megs of chache help? I don't know....just a thought. I just bought a 160 gig Maxtor UDMA ultra ATA/133 7200RPM but I have not installed it yet. The drive costed 160 bucks. I had two of these style drives from Western Digital but they failed too soon like a Western Digital seems fail. When Western Digital sent me replacements, they played "Switcheroo" on me and sent me 2 meg cache drives. So I never really had the chance to try them. The orginal ones didn't last long enough.  |  IP: Logged Mike Olpin Chop Chop! Posts: 1852 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Jan 2002 posted 09-27-2003 01:05 PM                     Western Digital = BAD! I've always had good luck with the Maxtors.  |  IP: Logged Ron Lacheur Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 650 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-27-2003 01:47 PM                     I have to agree with Mike, every Western Digital I've seen seems to fail after 2-3 years in some form.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-27-2003 01:52 PM                     Now that you mention it, I kind of suspect that Dell did the same "switcheroo" on my PC. Last year, the original 80GB HDD that came with my 1GHz PIII system started to fail and needed to be replaced. The replacement drive just doesn't move data anywhere near as well. I'm certain the original drive had a larger data cache in it. I'll bet this replacement has no more than a 1MB or 2MB cache, especially with the way it hangs and drops frames in Adobe Premiere. I may give Dell a call about this since my system is still under warranty (at least until November). Still, it would be nice to know if external Firewire HDD units work well for capturing MiniDV streams. The external unit would provide hot-pluggable convenience and a fast way to back up large amounts of data. I have looked at a variety of models. The ones Iomega sells seem like crap (small capacities, high prices and slow rotational speeds). Maxtor and Lacie seem to have some more attractive models, with 200GB and 250GB capacities. Most external Firewire drives I see basically contain an UltraIDE-based disc converted over to Firewire connection. At least the Lacie and Maxtor models I've seen on the web feature 7200rpm speeds.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-27-2003 02:40 PM                     Fry's is having a sale on WD 160gig 7200RPM drives with 8MB cache for $89 this week. So far I have yet to have a WD die. All of my Maxtors died within a few months of the warranty. I just had two of them die this month, yet they were stamped "warranty through Aug03". Maxtor Bobby, your hard drive is most probably the issue here.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-27-2003 02:44 PM                     I use Mercury Elite FireWire drives from www.otherworldcomputing.com for my Apple computers but I'd bet these will work on a PC. First of all, I don't think it's the IDE spec that's at fault because the drive inside a FireWire portable will be an IDE drive routed through an adapter. It could be your Dell. For video, I use 7200rpm IBM DeskStar drives. I don't use the Maxtors for video work. I like the portability of the external FW drives. We do a lot of our editing work on different machines and this makes it easy to take the files around. A few years back there was some concern about using drives larger than 60GB but I'm currently using 60GB, 80GB and 120GB with no problems (so far). Some colleagues have claimed getting good results with 5400rpm but I'd never personally try it. You also have the option of buying the case so that you could use a drive of your own choosing. I don't have much experience with other FW cases but we've had excellent results with the Oxford 911 bridge which we started buying after doing some web research. I have also purchased 5400rpm drives for my iTunes MP3 Library and recently I added a few of the little FireWire drives (2.5") to my collection just to have for portability. I love those little guys!  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 09-27-2003 04:33 PM                     Westenn Digital tend to be my IDE disk of choice; I've had a couple fail over the years, but that is out of several hundred, many remaining in use for many years. Most modern hard disks seem to be pretty good, we don't have many fail, the main exception being a batch of a hundred or so Fujitsu ones which were failing at a rate of one or two each week. This was a known problem, and the manufacturer of the computers replaced all the remaining ones with Maxstor. So far, I don't think any of those have failed. Our SCSI server disks are mainly Seagate, IBM and Fujitsu. We have about 80 of these in use at the moment, and get about one failure every year or two. I only have one Firewire drive, a Smartdisk Firelite 20GB. pocket sized one which I use mainly to move large files between work and home. I've only had it about six months, but I wouldn't be without it now. Much better than USB 2.0. It's just a pity that more PCs don't have Firewire as standard. I can't comment on how Firewire drives perform for video work, it's not something I'm involved in.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-27-2003 05:56 PM                     I agree Brad, I am pretty sure the internal hard disc is the problem. It is very likely my original disc had 8MB of cache and this one has maybe 1MB or 2MB. Dell's customer support is giving me the runaround on it too. I called to verify what they put into my machine versus what was originally in there. The guy tried to tell me it had something to do with Windows software or some baloney like that and switched me over to software support before I could even say anything. The asshole. I just wish I could find more documentation or reviews regarding external hard drives and how well they work at capturing digital video streams. I visited the Staples and Office Depot stores here in Lawton. The only external hard discs they had were USB 2.0 capable Maxtor units (a 40GB model for $120 and an 80GB model for $170). If I could verify that a 40GB USB 2.0 drive would take MiniDV data as fast the camera could feed it, then I would probably just buy that and call it a day. But I would really prefer to keep it all all-Firewire data flow if possible. Staples had an 80GB 7200rpm 8MB cache Maxtor internal IDE drive for $69 after rebate. But buying a new internal hard disc would mean a complete reinstall of all my system software, which will take a lot of time. So I'm still a little tempted to go with an external model. But I can't find anything anywhere that will verify whether those damned things work or not for reliably capturing video from a camcorder.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 09-28-2003 02:16 AM                        Older WD drives were very good, but the reports that I've been reading lately have said that they've pretty much become crap. They are noisy, too. Bobby, although Firewire hard drives usually do work, I'd recommend against it. Just get a 7200 rpm internal ATA of your choice and that'll be that. You don't have to replace the existing drive, just use this one for capture. It's always recommended to use a different drive than your OS drive for your media files, anyway. MUCH more reliable at capturing. I have read that when using a Firewire drive to capture, you are more likely to get dropped frames. Everyone on the DV and Apple forums bitching about dropped frames ALWAYS have external firewire drives. I have never had a single dropped frame since moving up to the G4 (the ol' crusty G3 with it's 5400rpm drive which was also the OS drive gave me three or four dropped frames 4 or 5 years ago). Also, you can just install a PCI firewire card (which you probably already have) and that way you don't need an extra power supply connection. The camera plugs directly into the card and there you have it. Or you could just wait a few months and get a nice Mac with all that crap taken care of (if you are purchasing a computer for video editing, that is). Of course, Macs are worthless without Final Cut Pro and the assortment of programs like that! iMovie does not count. Neither does iDVD!  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-28-2003 03:07 AM                     Seriously - consider getting a Mac. This stuff is waaaay easier with a Mac. Even the low-end Macs from 3-4 years ago can do video with no problem.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 09-28-2003 03:07 AM                     Bobby, Dell. Whether you have a WD, Maxtor, or whatever...if you call the drive manufacturer rep and give them the model number, they will tell you exactly what you have. I have to agree with Joe. The older drives by WD were really great. Brad, some people swear by Maxtor, some swear at them. I swear by them. On the other side of the coin, some people swear at Western Digital and some swear by them. I swear at them. All of my shit (including this machine) is equipped with Maxtors. Just like Ford and Shovrolets. True....I have had some good Western Digital drives. However, I had more WD drives fail than Maxtors..both at home as well as work. Most of the WD problems - they wouldn't "spin up." The switcharoo 120 Gig replacements Western Digital sent me seem to be OK...I gave one of them to Josh, and I used the other in my storage machine. But I still think Maxtor rocks! Manny, Macs. They might be good machines....but you'll pay through the ass for software. Hardly nothing fits....everything seems to be orientated to the IBM compatible...in otherwords...yes...MacroShaft. Ever since I installed Winblos 2000 Pro in this machine, it has been running flawlessly. That has been since the Winblos 2000 hit the market. I have done some nasty things to it, but it just keeps running and running. Don't forget..."Billy Boy" has a good chunk of stock in Apple. He is writing software for them, too. Because of the way Winblos 2000 Pro has been running, I have no desire to buy anything else that fits this thing, let alone a Mac.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 09-28-2003 05:49 AM                        If you want to do video editing for the Mac, you'll need some software. Final Cut Pro = $1000. Cinema Tools = $1000. Livetype, Soundtrack & Compressor = another few hundred bucks each. Oh wait. Final Cut Pro 4 includes all of those programs for $1000. If you have any older version of FCP (even version 1) you can get FCP4 (with all it's included programs) for $400. Of course if you're not into "mega serious" video editing and just do it as a passtime or hobby, then every Mac already includes iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, iTunes, iSync and tons of other stuff that are great for the casual user (stuff I really don't use).  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 09-28-2003 06:13 AM                     IDE disks are very cheap now, buying a large, fast Internal drive would be much cheaper than an external drive. Firewire boxes are useful for moving work around though. Joe, the machines we have been buying recently, last year or so have had Maxstor drives, seem ok so far, but it's still early days. The last WD I bought was for my home machine a few months ago, to repair it after the power supply blew up (literally!) and distroyed various other parts in the process. That one seems fine, and is quiet. If WD have gone downhill in recent times, then it's bad news. I remember the first hard disk we bought at my previous job. It was an external unit, in a case abuout the size of a 5U rack mount device. I don't know what the interface on the drive itself was, but there was a SASI bridge controller in the box, by which it was connected to the 8 bit Z-80 based server. There was space in the box to fit a second drive, but we couldn't afford it, and we thought we would never fill the first drive, after all, it was so huge, 16MB formatted! We wouldn't buy one of those 5 or 10 MB. ones, we were into serious data storage! Before you could move the thing you had to remove the lid of the box, and turn a wheel on the side of the drive to park the heads. If you so much as sneezed near the thing it would crash. This cost about five thousand pounds, and that was only about twenty years ago. How things change.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-28-2003 11:06 AM                     I opened up my case and got my hard drive unclamped out of the machine to see its model type, a Maxtor D740X-6L. That ATA 133 80GB turns out to have only a 2MB cache, which is pretty much what I expected. I'm certain the drive before had an 8MB buffer. Last night, I purchased a Maxtor Diamond Max Plus 80GB hard drive for $70 (price after a $30 rebate I have to mail). That one at least has an 8MB buffer. As far as hooking it up as a slave unit, I'm not sure how I'll be able to manage that. I think the DVD-ROM drive, CD-RW and floppy take up all the rest of my IDE channels. I have seen the recommendations from various NLE software stating you should capture to a separate physical drive. So I guess now I need to look at buying an external DVD-ROM or something like that to free up one of those IDE cables.  |  IP: Logged

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