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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Blade II - Flat instead Scope. Huh? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Blade II - Flat instead Scope. Huh?
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-12-2002 07:54 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Instead of posting a reply in Feature Info and Attachments, I decided to start a new topic here. Topic: What is up with these folks who take an established movie originally in 'scope and then shoot the sequel flat? It kind of ruins some of the visual continuity of a saga. I was really hoping "Blade II" would be a 'scope film since I liked how 'scope was handled on the first one.

This problem doesn't happen too often, but it is distracting when it does happen. I would have much preferred "Aliens" to be shot in Panavision like the first "Alien" movie was filmed. But James Cameron doesn't like anamorphic and Super35 was not quite up to snuff then so the 35mm release went out 1.85:1. The reverse sometimes happens as well. "Lethal Weapon" was a 1.85:1 film, yet all three of its sequels were in 'scope. But the result in the long term is that "Lethal Weapon" doesn't quite fit visually with the other films in that series.

Another cinematography discrepancy I find distracting is how "2001: A Space Odyssey" was filmed in 65mm/70mm, whereas its somewhat forgettable sequel "2010" was shot in 35mm 'scope. Why wasn't that filmed in 70mm as well? I recall the "2010" ads really blasting that 70mm logo out there far more than the original "2001" did. To make matters worse, the director of "2010" (Peter Hyams) listed himself as the Director of Photography as well. I don't know. Judging from the visual quality of his films, I think he needs to hire a real DP. I would be against him getting those "ASC" letters put after his name from all the hazy, color-drained images nearly all of his films contain. The opening scenes of "The Musketeer" were embarrasingly bad --and it had one of the cheeziest opening title sequences in recent times. Enough of my Peter Hyams needs a real DP rant.

Anyway, I think a film sequel should be shot in the same manner as its original. There are few exceptions that make any kind of sense. The only one that comes to mind perhaps might be "The Hustler" being a black and white film and its more modern day sequel "The Color Money" being a color film.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

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From: Eugene, Oregon
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 - posted 03-12-2002 08:01 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I often wonder at how filmmakers arrive at their 1.85 vs. 2.35 decisions. It's a little disappointing to buy a ticket for a big effects movie ("Collateral Damage" is a recent example) and enter the auditorium and find the screen masking set to flat. Being a pragmatist, I just sit closer to the screen so the image still fills my peripheral vision, and try not to think about it any further.

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Darryl Spicer
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 - posted 03-12-2002 08:30 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
According to James Cameron, the reason he shot Aliens flat was due to the fact that he had only 6 alien suits to work with. If he had shot the film animorphicaly he would of had to use more suites and he wanted things to feel tight and close not spread out.

The reason that Leathal Weapon is flat is because Richard Donner took over Directing the film after the original director, (not sure who it was) was caned during production and some scenes had already been shot. So rather than reshoot them he decided to continue on.

As far as super 35 goes. It was in full use for all arial shots in Top Gun do to the fact that anamorphic lenses were being damaged due to all the stress from the jets. Cameron likes to use Super 35 because the camera is not as heavy and is less bulky than with anamorphic lenses.

Now here is the big kicker it it probably has been mentioned here before. SPIDERMAN IS FREAKING FLAT!!!!!!!

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 03-13-2002 01:11 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Blade 3 will be shot in 1.33 and will be a straight to video release.

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Ron Lacheur
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From: British Columbia, Canada
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 - posted 03-13-2002 01:15 AM      Profile for Ron Lacheur   Email Ron Lacheur   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I recall off the commentary on the Die Hard Ultimate Edition that John McTiernan was talking about how the Producers of Predator only allowed him to shoot it in 1.85:1 due to the fact that 2.35:1 is more expensive.

I think it's many decisions all relating down to budget, experience and the producer and/or studio requests.

I am also disappointed with the fact that alot of movies are being shot Flat and not treated with Anamorphic. Movies like " Collateral Damage, Spiderman etc etc " should be scope while stupid crap like " Crossroads " should ( and is ) in flat.

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Aaron Haney
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 - posted 03-13-2002 01:22 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm sure Sam Raimi could have gone with scope for Spiderman if he wanted. I think he just doesn't like it. All of his movies, as far as I know, have been 1.85.

Director preference can change though, and not always for the better. Spielberg used to shoot exclusively in scope, but now he does everything flat. He had already made that general change in style by the time he shot the third Indiana Jones movie, but he apparently adhered to Bobby's rule about sequels, and shot it scope. I believe that was the last scope movie he did.


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Dave Williams
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 - posted 03-13-2002 03:21 AM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a student of directors, I feel somewhat qualified to interject here and clear up a few misconceptions.

Sam Raimi uses flat lenses like many other directors. Sometimes it is budget, as you can use cheaper film that normally doesnt come out well on anamorphics. This film is normally manufactured by fuji, as apposed to kodak. As with Raimi, he preferes the flat so that he never has to worry about if the image came out right or not. It is a purely paranoia thing, like superstition.

As to why Blade 2 in flat, that was because a new director was attached to the projects. Guillermo Del Toro uses flat capture as apposed to Steven Norrington who likes the scope.

As to Indiana 3 in scope when spielberg has begun a religeon based on flatness, that was actually George Lucas's call. George films in scope, and as producer of the film, he gets final say.

In fact, the producer always gets the final say, but usually leaves it up to the director, unless you are God of Skywalker Ranchero.

The reason that cameron chooses super 35 is because he can shoot it for a scope presentation while shooting flat, getting much more color saturation with flat lenses. He also gets to present the home video version 4:3 without pan and scan. If you get the home video 4:3 versions of most of his films, they do not pan or scan, but actually show the BOTTOM half of the frame, as they did not exist in the theaters. What a wacko.

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My favorite director is Alex Proyas, who also changed his choice from flat to scope when he shot Dark City.

As to why some of the dumbest films get the scope treatment? A lot of times with these films you get new directors who love scope and insist on it, and get a DP qualified to shoot it that way.

Spielberg says that the flat presentation is how most poeple see, WHAT A DORK!! I have 215 degree peripheral vision, and flat presentation makes me feel cheated. I MUST LIVE IN SCOPE.

Dave

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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 - posted 03-13-2002 03:53 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From what I have heard Spielberg prefers FLAT because he is concerned about the transfer to home video. The reason he shot SCOPE on the Indiana Jones movies was because of George Lucas, who loves the aspect ratio. But then after that it was back to FLAT. This is only what I have heard, but I automatically assume that it is 100% true.

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John Pytlak
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 - posted 03-13-2002 09:38 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a link to an article about "Super-35" by cinematographer Mark Woods:
http://www.cameraguild.com/technology/formats.htm

In general, using a larger image area (i.e. 35mm Anamorphic) helps reduce grain and improve sharpness in the final image. Anamorphic camera lenses generally are at a disadvantage to spherical lenses for speed, size/weight, and aberrations, but using Super-35 for "scope" releases requires optical printing to "squeeze" and recenter the image.

------------------
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Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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David Stambaugh
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 - posted 03-13-2002 09:39 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If a new James Bond movie is ever released in 1.85, it will be a sure sign of impending doom for movies in general.

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Leo Enticknap
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 - posted 03-13-2002 09:42 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Spielberg explanation sounds right - some of his early stuff (e.g. Jaws) was in 'scope, but that was before home video became an issue.

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Joe Beres
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 - posted 03-13-2002 10:24 AM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave, I am a bit confused about what you were saying about Cameron's 4:3 video transfers. How can they show the bottom half of the frame and be 4:3? Super 35 produces a wide aspect ratio, so how does he transfer to video without pan and scan? I am just curious.

Here is an interesting ASC article on Cameron's Super 35 usage and why it works so well for him.

I certainly agree that scope generally looks better than 1:85 blown up to current "ultrascreen" proportions. Personally, I would love to see John Pytlak's 1.5 anamorphic process replace the wasted image area of the current 1.85 standard. Here is a link to the article John P. wrote on the proposed new system. (I hope you don't mind, John. I know linking, especially to Kodak sites, is your specialty. )


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David Stambaugh
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 - posted 03-13-2002 11:06 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
True anamorphic Panavision (and its clones) invariably look better than spherical or Super-35 to me. Spielberg should be ashamed of himself for stubbornly sticking to spherical. Any director or DP of big-budget MADE FOR THEATERS MOVIES who thinks in terms of home video is a fraud and a disgrace to his profession!! For crissake, everyone knows the home video crowd who loathes letterboxing doesn't give a about cropping, so for crying out loud shoot the movie for the big screen and forget about home video!!!

Oh, uh, Steven, if you're reading this, I luv you man.

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Greg Anderson
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 - posted 03-13-2002 11:07 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just to add a little trivia to the discussion...

Spielberg's last 'Scope movie was Hook. His next movies were Jurassic Park and Schindler's List. Personally, I'm not sure if his switch to flat wasn't due, in part, to his desire to be taken more seriously by the Academy. He made a lot of interesting choices with Schindler's List which could be analyzed as consessions to the snob artistic community. So, the guy whom everyone considered to be the king of "Hollywood slick movie" directing makes his movie in 1.85 and in Black and White. He hires a Polish D.P. He makes his first R-rated movie and, as if that wasn't enough to convince the Academy that he was serious, he takes on the subject of the Holocaust. Just try not to give an Oscar to this director already!

There's still the perception in Hollywood that 'Scope movies are popcorn movies and serious movies must be flat.

Of course, Spielberg had reasonable explanations for all those artistic choices and I'm not saying those explanations weren't sincere. I'm only saying that it was interesting that so many things he used to do were abandoned in 1993 and that Spielberg desperately wanted an Oscar. After Hook was pretty-much considered a disaster, he defiantly showed Hollywood what he was made of in 1993 by making two movies, one of which was the biggest money-maker of the year and the other which was the Best Picture. There was even an ad in one of the trade papers announcing that Jurassic Park was completed ahead of schedule and under budget. Take that!

As for Cameron, his preference for Super 35 isn't just about the eventual video versions of his movies. Joe beat me to the punch but that ASC article is great. If you are interested in Super 35 it's a must-read. Also, check out more of what Cameron has to say about Super 35 in this interview...
http://www.theasc.com/magazine/dec97/titanic/chs/pg2.htm

...and the Super 35 discussion starts at the bottom of the page. He calls it a "God-given format" and explains how he doesn't like the shallow depth of field and other limitations of anamorphic.

It's interesting that when a movie series switches formats from one movie to the next it pretty-much always has something to do with a switch of directors and/or producers. It's an instant method of telling the audience "this is not the movie you saw last time." And, since sequels can usually never live up to the original, it's a courteous message we should listen to.


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Wes Hughes
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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
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 - posted 03-13-2002 12:02 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave: Why would cheaper film stock not "come out as well" with anamorphics? It doesn't make sense because an anamorphic frame has less grain and more sharpness since it is not blown up as much as flat...it seems that with ANY film stock 'scopes would perform better than flats.

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