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Author Topic: Natural gas question - Knoxville teen burned
Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 07-20-2001 01:48 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Totally non-film related:

I have a question about natural gas. In Knoxville last weekend, two teenagers were walking and one decided to light a cigarette. There was a corroded gas pipe where they'd been walking so that the air around them had enough gas in it to ignite into a fireball, buring both teenagers. One had burns over part of his body and the other was totally engulfed and was burned over 90 percent of his body.

I understood that natural gas was odorless, but had a smell put into it so that it would be detectable. You'd think the teenagers would have been able to smell the gas if there were enough in the air to ignite. Are there areas in which natural gas has no odor put in?

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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Info Site

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John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-20-2001 02:13 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gads!

My first thought was that yes, smoking will kill you, but usually not that fast. I certainly hope they survive, although those kinds of injuries will most certainly be with them for the rest of their lives. How sad.

Here's a good website about the history of odorized natural gas ...
http://www.oxychem.com/products/odorants/newlondon.html

I searched the United States code (federal law) but couldn't find any law specifically requiring odorants, although there is a large body of federal regulation that may well require it.

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-20-2001 02:35 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Evans:

Even if gas has an odor, an individual might not notice it, say they have bad sinuses, etc, etc.

Now, propane does have an odor.

In any case, when it comes to fuels and gases, one common way to check for leaks is with a NONOIL/NONPETROLEUM based soap/water solution--just like detecting a leak in a tire or innertube. And when doing this type of work, remove anything on your person that could cause a spark--and double check your footwear! Also remove anything from the immediate area that could cause a spark! And contact the approperiate agencies (fire department, gas-electric company, etc, etc,) if the situation is serious enough.

Also remember that when it comes to liquid fuels such as gasolene, it is not the liquid that is flamable, but the vapors emmitted from the liquid that are flamable. Hence propane and natural gasses that are in a vapor form.

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-20-2001 08:56 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sad about those two teenagers.

Always remember if you do smell gas NEVER operate a light switch, the resultant spark can create an explosion.

Years ago, in Ottawa, a caretaker of a theatre smelt gas one morning, and (we deduce) turned on the light switch to the basement of the theatre to investigate the cause. It was the last thing he ever did.

The building disappeared. A set of theatre exit doors, still coupled together, buried themselves into a jewelery store across the road.


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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 07-20-2001 11:03 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I worked in the HVAC industry a few years ago, and worked on many gas furnaces and appliances.

LP (propane) is heavier than air. Therefore, if you have a leak situation, you will have to get close to the ground and sniff around to find it. If you can smell it, get out of the area, fast. Turn off the gas at the tank.

I was working on a furnace in a crawl-space, dodging spiders, and critters galore. This furnace ran on LP gas. The customer had complained that the gas tank had emptied over the summer. The furnace was the only gas-fired item in the house. After checking all the gas lines for leaks using the previously mentioned soap, and seeing that the tank had just been filled, I went under the house and crawled to the furnace. I could smell a slight gas odor.

I found a bad gas valve on the furnace. Normally, when the pilot light goes out, the gas valve will shut down after about 30 seconds. It will not re-open until the pilot is re-lit, and the thermocouple heats up enough to satisfy the gas valve safety control. Well, this time, the pilot, though out, was still getting gas and it was not being burned, and was all over the floor of the crawl space. The safety control in the gas valve was faulty.

I replaced the valve. This was a good hour job. I didn't notice any gas smell anymore. So, I whipped out my trusty Bic lighter and lit the pilot.
I saw a blue flame whoosh away from me and down the grade under the house to the foundation. It happened so fast that I didn't have time to react. As quickly as it happened, it was gone.

It never occurred to me at that time that the LP was heavier than air and had pooled in the lower part of the crawlspace.

Natural gas is lighter than air, and has the rotton egg odor, too. I think that it would take alot of gas build-up to ignite when a match is lit. The fumes have to be very obvious for the concentration to be heavy enough to ignite. Thats why the smell is there. Still, get out of the area. Dont turn on anything that could cause a spark. In my case, I once had to get out of a house and shut off the gas at the meter. I called the fire department from my service truck. They told me that the house would have blown up if the gas had lingered much longer. There was a crack in a fitting on a pipe in the house that caused the problem.

Believe me when I say that I have a healthy respect for any gas, oil, gasoline, kerosene, etc. all the time.

I saw the piece on the Knoxville neighborhood on the news. The flames were really bellowing out of the hole in the ground. It must have ruptured the line in the ground.

I hope those kids are going to be OK.

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Dennis Atkinson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 129
From: Birch Run Michigan
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 07-21-2001 08:15 AM      Profile for Dennis Atkinson   Author's Homepage   Email Dennis Atkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A few years ago, a welder got into his car and noticed the smell
of gas from his welding torch tank in the trunk.
He carefully rolled down the windows to air out the car.
He then, police believe, opened the glove compartment and pressed the
trunk opener.
The tank went through the roof of a neighbors house down the street,
the car exploded. Car parts all over the area, welder parts too.

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 07-22-2001 08:38 PM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Natural gas (methane) has no odor. It's why miners used to carry canaries around. The canaries would drop dead from the gas even though the miners couldn't smell it, letting the miners know to get the heck outta there. It's for that reason that the gas companies add a miniscule amount of a substance called mercaptin to it so that you CAN smell it. The smell of this stuff is the most powerful odor on the planet, A few ounces of it would be enough to make an entire state sick. As far as I know, all gas companies add it to their product. Most of the eastern part of the country is serviced by a couple of major pipelines that start in Texas and end up here in NJ. You might remember that a few years ago somebody nicked one up here in Edison, leading to a really spectacular explosion and fire. The pipes are so darned big that you can stand in one. I can see them where they come out of the ground at the pressurizing station that I drive by each day. You can smell the odor even from the teeney part that leaks into the air.

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Matthew Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 461
From: Port Arthur,TX
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 07-22-2001 09:36 PM      Profile for Matthew Bailey   Email Matthew Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
During my childhood years in Oklahoma,my dad used to work as a
communications tech at a compressor station in Mountain View
which was owned by Natural Gas Pipeline Co. at the time.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-22-2001 11:32 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I was a kid, back in Pennsylvania, there was a gasline leak in our back yard. You could barely smell the gas but only when the air was still. The gas company sent a man out to our place and he used a "sniffer" to determine the amount of gas in the air. There was very little. He started poking holes in the ground and inserting the tube of the sniffer into the ground. On the very first reading he said, "Holy shit! We have a problem!" He made a couple more tests to verify his readings and then immediately "called it in". Within the hour there was a crew on-site.

I was told that there was so much gas absorbed into the ground that they couldn't safely run any digging equipment. They had to "aspirate" the ground all around our yard for a whole day before they could start work. Basically, what they did was drill holes all around the yard and inserted these "T" pipes about 4 feet down into the soil. Big, industrial compressors were hooked up to one branch of the "T" and high volumes of air were pumped through them. I was told the idea was to use the venturi effect to draw as much gas out of the ground as possible to make it safe. There were about 5 or 6 of these devices all around the place and they left them running overnight. Tests were made periodically until the "LEL" readings were low enough to permit digging.

The next morning they started digging. They found a 6 inch (or something) main pipe had rusted through and was leaking pretty badly. They "jacketed" the line with this big "coupling-thingy" that looked like something out of a Frankenstein movie. When they were all done, one of the supervisors came by to make the final tests and pronnounced the area safe again. He basically told us that we were lucky that the house didn't blow up because the gas was starting to leak through the basement walls and we didn't know it. (We had to let them into the house to perform tests.)

From this experience, I am supposing that the two kids could have found themselves in a similar situation where the ground was saturated with gas but couldn't tell because there wasn't enough of it "floating" in the air to detect. Only this time they weren't so lucky...

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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 07-23-2001 01:00 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Knoxville teen that was burned (third degree) over 95 percent of his body, Jerrod Lyon, died just before midnight on Friday.


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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 07-24-2001 12:09 AM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Natural gas as well as the vapors of all petroleum liquid fuels that we ordinarily come in contact with are heavier that air, This is according to a chemist friend.

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James Keel
Film Handler

Posts: 16
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-02-2001 09:59 PM      Profile for James Keel   Email James Keel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And this entire thread is why my place is 100% electric. When my parents bought a house in Garland in 1965, the City gave you a Gold Medallion that went on the front of your that said some such like "100% Safe, 100% Electric Household". Neat huh?

JK

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-03-2001 05:11 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's a sad commentary.

This story was featured in the paper, and mentioned on all of the local TV stations when it happened. It was the lead story on several. Now Evans reports the death of the burn victim.

Where's all this coverage now? I read the paper daily, and do the news on TV nightly. Not a word has been mentioned.

Life can be short.

Gas can be tricky, but I am in no way afraid of it. As long as your safety controls are functioning, you have nothing to worry about. The same goes for electric.

We had a house in 1966 that had the Total Electric medallion on the front door. The first month that we ran the heat in the fall, the bill was $350!

I'd rather have gas heat... then oil (another messy heat,) then wood, then electric.

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Tao Yue
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 209
From: Princeton, NJ
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-03-2001 09:19 AM      Profile for Tao Yue   Author's Homepage   Email Tao Yue   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An all-eletric household is safer than one that burns natural gas. However, electric ranges are less efficient than gas stoves (not to mention the other problems). First, there are the thermodynamic losses: heating up water to make steam, spinning up a turbine, generating electricity from it, transmitting the electricity, stepping down the voltage to household 110, and finally reaching the stove.

There are also practical considerations -- for example, lighting a gas stove generates even heat almost immediately. Starting an electric burner takes a while to heat up to maximum temperature. A pot with an uneven surface works just as well on a gas range, but loses contact area (and hence heating) on an electric burner.

If we were like France, and got 80% of our electricity from nuclear power, then perhaps the inconveniences might be worth it to reduce emissions from burning fossil fuels. However, coal-generated electricity is probably much dirtier overall than just burning gas directly in your home. And using natural-gas generated electricity in place of a natural gas stove is just silly.

There are no easy answers in the field of energy. At least, not until fusion becomes viable. Twenty more years, the scientists say. And as some people have pointed out, it was twenty years way back in the 1950s, too.

------------------
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-03-2001 10:00 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Fusion Energy in Rochester NY ("Back to the Future" revisited):

http://www.lle.rochester.edu/external_index.html
http://www.rochester.edu/pr/Currents/V25/V25N18/story3.html
Fusion FAQ

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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