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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Author
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Topic: Garbage
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 12-24-2019 08:54 PM
Around here, there have been recycling efforts for at least 30 years now, but what strikes me is how non-standardized they are and how every country, town, province, municipality comes up with their own set of rules of how to divide your trash into containers and/or bags.
One of the most confusing systems I've ever used is the "blue bag" system in Belgium, where I literally have to look up on-line if stuff needs to go into the "blue", "red" or "yellow" bag.
Imagine how confusing this is, when you need to implement this in a business. Maybe it works if you provide three colored trash-cans for locals, who know how the system works, but what when you service many customers from out of your "recycling region", who have no clue what to put where?
For a cinema, where the type of trash is somewhat limited, you could, maybe solve it by putting on the bins which item needs to go where, but for any more public place, such a recycling system is simply due to fail, not because people don't want to recycle, but because the systems are confusing and that's what I'm witnessing right now.
I was in a German airport lately, where I really struggled to divide my trash over the 4 bins they provided... When is something considered to be soft plastic? What if something is made out of both metal and plastic? Etc.
Most professional businesses around here need to buy their own trash-handling, at least when it exceeds a certain volume. You pay extra, based on weight, if you provide the trash undivided, so there have been efforts with multiple trash cans all around here, but what needs to go into each is different, depending on where you are.
I know some cinemas that simply label their trashcans with stuff like "plastic", "paper", "residual waste" or some use icons, depicting which item goes where. The latter one works the best for me, but which system yields the best end-result, as in the best-sorted trash, I don't know. Others still provide single trash-cans, seemingly just paying extra for their trash-handling but skipping the added logistics of providing multiple trash-cans, labeling and separated waste storage.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 12-25-2019 08:06 AM
Recycling has been a bit of a ruse to the public. By and large, it is a feel-good move that doesn't do what people think it is doing.
There are some items that recycle very well. Aluminum...that is an excellent recycling container. You melt it, you get aluminum back and it costs a fraction of what it takes to get new aluminum again.
Paper can definitely recycle but there are conditions in there an the yield is less than "my" standard of recycling, aluminum.
Plastics...there is little to no chance at getting people to get the nuance of plastic. For the record, the recycle numbers are the key..."1" and "2" plastics recycle. "5" sort of recycles. All other plastics...landfill. Try and teach that to the curbside recycler. And it isn't easy since you have both recyclable and non-recyclable clear-plastics. And really, they should have different bins for the ones that are being recycled (then you might get "4" worthwhile)...but the numbers would need to be "in-your-face" not barely molded into the bottle or device to aid in one getting it into the right place.
Some plastics also "gum up" the works...like plastic bags and will shut down a line.
In short, plastic recycling is a lot of work, is often misunderstood, and more often than not, is going to the landfill rather than being recycled.
We used to reuse glass containers (thinking soda bottles here but many glass containers can be sterilized and reused rather than recycle). We should get back to that.
We should also recognized the cost factor and yield of some "recyclables" and not bother until such time we have a way to make it make sense. And for some of those, simply not use them in manufacture unless there is no better alternative.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-25-2019 01:26 PM
Our city has a couple of bulk-removal services. Residents can place cut tree branches in piles by the curb for pick-up. Tree limbs go in their own pile at the city dump, but don't get buried in the land fill. I think they're ground up and recycled. Residents can place bigger items like old mattresses, couches out by the curb, but have to call for a special pick-up. Residents can also haul bulk items out to the landfill for a $3 fee each visit.
Once a year we have a spring cleaning event in the parking lot of McMahon auditorium. There are separate stations for all kinds of things. People drop old air conditioners, refrigerators and other appliances at one station. There's a station for collecting old motor oil. Obviously they'll take piles of magazines and newspapers. Aluminum is valuable. Overall it's a popular, annual event.
quote: Steve Guttag
Plastics...there is little to no chance at getting people to get the nuance of plastic. For the record, the recycle numbers are the key..."1" and "2" plastics recycle. "5" sort of recycles. All other plastics...landfill. Try and teach that to the curbside recycler. And it isn't easy since you have both recyclable and non-recyclable clear-plastics. And really, they should have different bins for the ones that are being recycled (then you might get "4" worthwhile)...but the numbers would need to be "in-your-face" not barely molded into the bottle or device to aid in one getting it into the right place.
Worldwide we desperately need a change in our approach to manufacturing products with plastic, particularly any products that are disposable -like a 2 liter soda pop bottle. Too much of this stuff is getting into the waterways and oceans. It breaks down into micro size pieces small enough to be consumed by marine life at the bottom of the food chain. The tremendous level of micro plastics in oceans and lakes presents a serious health threat to humans. That plastic is working its way up the food chain and finding its way onto our dinner plates.
The debate about global warming is one thing. But it is an undeniable fact humans have turned many ocean zones into life-less, polluted toilets. The zones where fish are still plentiful are shrinking due to rampant over-fishing on an industrial scale. And many of the fish being caught are compromised with chemical and granular pollutants. If we keep going in this direction the only fish relatively safe to eat will be fish raised in farm environments.
quote: Frank Cox
I have always had the idea (based on no actual research on my part) that one of the most efficient ways to "recycle" trash would be to have a large incinerator and use the heat from that to generate electricity.
Burning trash has the consequence of greenhouse gas emissions. Some kinds of trash (like plastics) should not be burned. All kinds of harmful fumes can be released into the air.
In regards to power generation, I've seen some large scale landfills (such as one in Los Angeles) build pipe lines to use the gases that develop down deep in the pile for energy.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 12-25-2019 03:36 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
Another thing that reminds me of living in Japan or even certain features of American life decades ago was the fact customer paid "deposits" on certain kinds of products.
We also have deposits systems over here, but they vary wildly between countries. For me, traveling regularly between at least three of them, it's not always making matters that simple.
Germany tends to have deposits on almost anything, ranging from plastic bottles, to even tin cans, only a few strange exceptions: If something contains milk, there is usually no deposit on it. All stores that sell the stuff, are obliged to accept empty bottles and cans. So if you buy a can of soda pop at a gas station, you can deposit it at the next one.
The Netherlands only has deposits on larger bottles, mainly plastic bottles. Smaller bottles and cans like 0.5l and 0.33l varieties don't carry a deposit. The system works almost entirely via grocery stores and supermarkets, where you can return those bottles, usually using a machine that scans those bottles and issues you a receipt. Those same machines are in use across Europe, where they have deposits on certain containers.
In Belgium, there is no deposit on anything, except on some glass bottles. But you're supposed to dispose plastic bottles via the "blue bag", which should ensure some kind of recycling.
I remember there was a big backslash for Coca Cola in the Netherlands, about 10 years back, when they decided to switch from disinfecting and refilling used and recycled plastic bottles to melting them down and extruding new ones from the molten material. The reason was: Those used plastic bottles often looked pretty beat-up, they wanted to increase their "image" and "perceived quality".
Plastics are a big problem for our environment, there is certainly no denying it. We've found micro particles of plastic in almost anything now. We only now start to realize the real impact in the long run. The fact that most plastics do not degrade, but eventually end up as micro-particles that enter our food chains on all levels, should scare the shit out of all of us, as we're certainly not made to consume plastics.
I don't know if a deposit system and re-usable containers is the answer to everything, because there are so many products out there and it's already an almost impossible task to have both Coca Cola and Pepsi use the same bottles, for example.
I think it's better to make containers out of stuff that's either very easily recyclable or bio-degradable, which is already a pretty tough nut to crack for some packaging. But no matter what, getting traditional, non-degrading plastics out of our disposable packaging should really be a top priority, or else we'll end up eating and drinking it.
An example that replacing plastics isn't always easy: A local McDonald's recently switched from plastic straws to straws made from some kind of paper product. Those things have an awful mouth-feel, so much that I simply don't want to use them and rather drink right from the cup.
Now, drinking right from the cup would be a far better experience if the thing wouldn't be made out of the most wobbly kind of material. If it would be sufficiently stable, I wouldn't need any more straws, not even a cap on top of it. But it's a perfect example how it's not all that easy to replace something simple like a plastic straw with something that's a true alternative.
Another alternative would be a little bit more flexibility from the big boys: Usually, when I'm on the road and I want a coffee, I pull over at a gas station and fill my own thermo cup at a self-service coffee machine. But recently, they had outfitted such a gas station with a Starbucks. No-way-in-hell they wanted to fill my coffee directly into my thermo cup, it had to go into their packaging.
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