Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Ground Level   » Warner Brothers Nontheatrical License?! (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Warner Brothers Nontheatrical License?!
Reid Helford
Film Handler

Posts: 16
From: Dayton, Washington, USA
Registered: Feb 2008


 - posted 05-01-2008 05:07 PM      Profile for Reid Helford   Author's Homepage   Email Reid Helford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a question for those of you who present classic films on DVD.

This year we cannot seem to get nontheatrical licenses for any WB films on DVD. Swank can get us VHS and that is it. WB won't reply to my e-mails. Is there anyone who actually shows WB DVDs for classic film series and is able to get license to do so? Tell me how!

Reid

 |  IP: Logged

Ky Boyd
Hey I'm #23

Posts: 314
From: Santa Rosa, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-01-2008 07:25 PM      Profile for Ky Boyd   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Try Marilee Womack at WB Classics. 818-379-1823 We were approved to present a commercial showing of Victor Victoria via DVD because no 35mm prints were available to non-changeover houses.

 |  IP: Logged

Reid Helford
Film Handler

Posts: 16
From: Dayton, Washington, USA
Registered: Feb 2008


 - posted 05-01-2008 08:28 PM      Profile for Reid Helford   Author's Homepage   Email Reid Helford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yea, we originally contacted Marilee, but she directed us to another person. I am back to Marilee to see what she can do for us to get an answer. I fear that we will not be able to get a nontheatrical to show these DVDs.

Thanks for a quick reply.

Reid

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-02-2008 04:07 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wait a minute....Swank will license a VHS copy but not a DVD copy? So WB has specifically said that the DVD is not to be screened non-theatrically? It's in the rental bins that anyone can see if for $2. If WB says that the DVD is specifically not licensed for non-theatrical but the VHS is, I would be really surprised. My understanding is that in most cases, the license is for the exhibition of the title, not the format, assuming they are both identical versions. What's to stop you from paying Swank's license fee, letting them send you the VHS and running whatever you have on whatever equipment you have?

I would definately check with Brian Fox at Swank and be sure that there is no specific reason why you COULDN'T run the DVD. I am not saying that there isn't -- there actually can be some very twisted legal issues if the DVD is a different cut, especially with music that has had licensing issues and possibly changed, etc. But check with Brian to make sure.

 |  IP: Logged

Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003


 - posted 05-02-2008 06:43 AM      Profile for Brian Guckian   Email Brian Guckian   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know this sounds like being a spoilsport, but DVD isn't a projection format [Razz] ...and neither is VHS [Eek!]

These formats were specifically designed and engineered for domestic TV sets and monitors.

Blu-Ray could be acceptable in certain situations, but the primary exhibition medium should be 35mm.

Is installing 35mm feasible in this case?

Please understand - I'm not being critical, just "thinking outside the box" [Wink]

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-02-2008 07:39 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You could always rent a VHS or 16mm copy (or 35mm, though shipping costs would be prohibitive) and "accidentally" run the DVD instead. Assuming that there are no differences between the versions (e.g. music rights, as Frank mentions), I can't imagine that there would be any problems.

Agreed that DVD is a crappy exhibition format. I'd even take VHS over DVD; at least VHS won't stop randomly in the middle of a show and dump you back to a menu or, worse, a "SONY DVD PLAYER" splash logo. It also doesn't have the problem of requiring the user to select the proper language track and/or subtitles, it doesn't have poorly authored menus that don't work, and it doesn't have region-coding. These issues might be acceptable on Aunt Millie's 19" TV, but they are not acceptable in a theatrical or nontheatrical environment.

If you must do video, see about getting a Digi-Beta or HDCAM copy. It won't be cheap, but those formats do work reliably. Be prepared to spend upwards of $500/day to rent the deck.

It's scary how a good video projection setup actually costs _more_ to purchase than a 35mm setup. Figure on $30k+ for a 3-chip DLP projector, $5k for a lens, $5k for an HD-SDI card, and $20k for an HDCAM player. That's $60k and you still don't have a screen or a sound system. And all of this will become obsolete in a few years, and good equipment is difficult to find on the used market. On the other hand, the video system has the advantage of being smaller and lighter and requiring a less-skilled operator, so it does make sense in some cases (and is needed for presenting material not available on film).

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-02-2008 09:36 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Scott Norwood
Agreed that DVD is a crappy exhibition format. I'd even take VHS over DVD; at least VHS won't stop randomly in the middle of a show and dump you back to a menu or, worse, a "SONY DVD PLAYER" splash logo.
Oh Scott...you could not have meant that. I still remember the comment I heard at the AFI/Silver when a VHS tape was running (not for a paying public)...wow...that image is so sharp (DLP projection), you can COUNT the lines (referring the scan lines). "We will never charge for a VHS showing." VHS, in projection always sucks pretty bad...there just isn't enough data there to work with.

As for DVDs...no, they are not a theatrical projection format but they are MUCH more passable and so long as the audience knows they are seeing a DVD, I don't see the harm. Often when a special venue theatre is is running a DVD, it is because there are no 35mm prints available of that title or they are so badly chopped up/damaged that the DVD version is more watchable. Hopefully, Blu-Ray will narrow the gap between film and video a bit.

As to DVD players...Wal-Mart is not the place to shop if you want reliability...then again...I've seen some of the cheapest DVD players play discs that the high-dollar units can't! What the "professional" DVD players get you is generally reliability and no on-screen display crap. Also, the Denon units we sell can be set to skip the menus.

Steve

 |  IP: Logged

Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003


 - posted 05-02-2008 10:37 AM      Profile for Brian Guckian   Email Brian Guckian   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to apologise in case I came across as being unrealistic above...where I was coming from is that if enough people make a stand for film, rather than giving in to the "there are no prints so we have to screen the DVD" ethos, then it could create a breakthrough in the supply of new prints of classic titles.

In Europe, the BFI in the UK have made a LOT of new prints of classic titles in the last 20 years. It can be done!

 |  IP: Logged

John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-02-2008 12:57 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, Steve, doesn't someone make a blurring/dithering box for VHS to reduce the sharpness? It's a legitimate image-processing technique that might feel wrong, but isn't actually throwing away information...

Is it actually possible to get Digibeta or HDCAM (or HDCAM-SR or D5 or whatever) tapes of released titles? It's certainly an interesting idea...

I'm surprised Swank won't license DVDs to you; it sounds like there is something weird going on there. What category of theatre are you?

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-02-2008 12:59 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Reid Helford
This year we cannot seem to get nontheatrical licenses for any WB films on DVD.
Reid, you can't get ANY titles from WB? I find that hard to believe -- they do, after all, have a Classics Department (Merilee as per Ky). Perhaps they have made a decision only to book 35mm prints (seems unlikely). But we get 35mm prints from them all the time, although I admit I never tried to book a DVD from them. I have only had to run three DVDs in my life, one from Kino (ran OK) and two Swank (one WB title, one Disney)-- the Disney title froze three time in front of an audience of 150 screaming kids --the only way to get past the bad spot was to go to the start menu & fast forward THRU THE WHOLE MOVIE to that point, and pray....allot.

I say, if the studios and their non-theatrical subsidiary (Swank) are going to charge for a non-theatrical screening of a DVD and charge $250-$500 for it, then they damn well should, at the very least, supply a spanking NEW DVD. But more than that, they should supply one that has been burned SPECIFICALLY for a NON-THEATRICAL engagement which is a very different animal than a HOME screening license. They should be sending a DVD that starts WITH THE MOVIE and without the damn FBI warning and the assinine play menu and without the words HOME VIDEO anywhere.

If they are sending me a HOME VIDEO DVD, then I should only have to pay the HOME VIDEO DVD price and pick the damn thing up at the local video store for $10. The idea that I pay essentially the same for a home DVD as what I would have to pay for a 35mm print rental and then get a USED DVD from Swank with the stupid admonition in the box: "Play this DVD before your show to make sure there are no problems; if it will not play correctly, contact us immediately." SCREW YOU Swank; for $400, send me a NEW freakin disk!! [Mad]

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 05-02-2008 01:39 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought the "real world" rules about non-theatrical screenings went something like this:

Once you've paid the license fee, it doesn't really matter what format you actually use for the screening. The fee covers the content; how that content gets delivered means nothing. If you have 35mm capability and access to a good print, go with that. But if the home DVD looks/plays better, pay the fee and play the DVD.

As for screening DVDs, when I do it I always cue and pause the DVD to some point where the film will start without all the home video crap at the front end. Some DVDs will not allow for this. In that case I do a quick rehearsal to time and note how long it takes to get from the play button to first usable picture, and what the last piece of junk looks like prior to first picture. There is usually more than enough time to roll the DVD, then fade the non-sync and dim the house. Un-mute the picture on the projector at the right moment (for me that means pull the cardboard out from in front of the lens [Big Grin] ) and voila!

On the player I use, I also play the DVD through the layer change just before show. My player has a small buffer to cover the change, but it has to be loaded by playing through first. During the money show it will then play without a pause at the change.

I've never had my player pause or do the DVD version of a MS BSOD on me during a show, and I've played some horribly authored discs (Manga's US anime discs being the worst examples).

 |  IP: Logged

Reid Helford
Film Handler

Posts: 16
From: Dayton, Washington, USA
Registered: Feb 2008


 - posted 05-02-2008 08:16 PM      Profile for Reid Helford   Author's Homepage   Email Reid Helford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yikes. I feared this may become another format battle and the need to show 35mm as the only proper projection format, etc... I understand those concerns, but I'm not in a position to be a purist. I simply wanted to know if WB was granting nontheatrical licenses on DVD performances.

We are a small, non-profit theater that does sub-run, some foreign/independent and live performances. Once a month on a Thursday for 8 months out of the year we run a classic film for the local community (a town of only 2,500). One of the Board members loves old films so he puts together a list of films and plans out a series. On this one day of the month we show one of his selections. It draws 30 or so older folks in town who pay a few bucks, buy some popcorn, and LOVE the movie.

Logistically and financially it makes little sense to order a 35mm print, build it up, show it once, break it down, and pay over twice the price of using the DVD. We aim to about break even on these presentations and DVDs are currently the only way to it. If, in the future, we are able to draw 150 or so over 2 or 3 showings, we might be able to pull off 35mm prints. However, our theater has something scheduled on most other nights so it would be difficult to expand the number of showings of the classic films.

Swank does not handle the rights to the DVDs of these WB/MGM movies. I am not sure how the distinction between VHS and DVD performances is handled legally, but Katy at Swank made it very clear to me that rights to DVDs has to go through WB.

While Marilee was a bit rude and very busy sounding, it turns out we will be able to buy a license for these films on DVD and do so through WB.

Reid

 |  IP: Logged

Geoff Jones
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 579
From: Broomfield, CO, USA
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted 05-02-2008 09:18 PM      Profile for Geoff Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Geoff Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
and so long as the audience knows they are seeing a DVD, I don't see the harm
I think this is an important point. In March, I drove more than an hour each way to see Jaws at a small town theatre in St. Helena, CA at 11pm, only to discover they were projecting a DVD.

I was pretty angry, bitched about it on my blog, and won't ever go back there, even if I'm in the area.

 |  IP: Logged

Adam Holland
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: Oak Grove, LA
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 05-03-2008 09:00 AM      Profile for Adam Holland   Email Adam Holland   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Reid,

Where are you from. I run a theatre that sounds very similar to the one you are running in a town with about the same population. We show a classic film about once a quarter for four showings over a weekend and break even at best, we just do it as a service to the community.

We currently rent everything from Swank and have had no problem getting classics from them. We showed White Christmas in December and the Music Man in February and both were on DVD.

I would love the opportunity to discuss your theatre with you as it sounds very similar to ours in the goal of what you are trying to do.

Adam T. Holland
Fiske Theatre
 -
Oak Grove, La. 71263

[ 05-03-2008, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-04-2008 04:31 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Reid Helford
We are a small, non-profit theater that does sub-run, some foreign/independent and live performances.
Reid,
You are running exactly the same format we do. That is not non-theatrical. It's arthouse and should be treated as theatrical by the studio. Are you part of a school, museum or other non-theatrical entity? If not, then I would suggest staying away from non-theatrical bookings. Not-for-profit doesn't necessarily mean non-theatrical.

If you are solely a theatre operation, regardless of the mix types of films you play and regardless of the fact that you don't run film all the time but have live shows, you run subrun and art fare, you're open to the public and are charging admission and I assume you advertise to the general public, then you ARE a theatrical house.

The sticking point with the theatrical vs. non-theatrical concept is that Swank and other sublicensees have deals with the studios that guarantee they get to book colleges, museums, hospital "shut-ins" etc.; contractually these bookings must be handed over to Swank (and the other sublicensees) who get a portion of the rental, of course. But if you are a stand-alone theatre, not affiliated with any of those types that are flagged (I contend quite artificially) "non-theatrical," then Swank doesn't get to claim you as a non-theatrical.

You said you book subrun; you book directly from the studios off the break? If so, that's how you should book the older titles as well. My experience has been that getting into the non-theatrical world is messy because you are dealing with a third party, not directly with the studio which has control of the prints, i.e. you want to ask a question about a print (is it a Dolby A or SR track? for example), you'd have to ask Swank in their regional office, he has to relay it to some guy in Cincinnati who is the only one allowed to talk directly to the studios, he relays it back to the regional guy who relays it back to you, only to find out that your question wasn't correctly asked to begin with and the process starts all over again. It's frustration city, believe me.

Swank doesn't have any 35mm prints of their own (well, almost none) and so if you book a title thru them, they have to go to the studio and arrange for a print. You could do that just as effectively and probably get a better deal yourself. Again, if you are a school or a museum, contractually the studio will have to send you back to Swank, but not a theatre -- a theatre deals with the studio directly, even if it is the studio's classics department for older titles.

The line between theatrical and non-theatrical is very fuzzy. And if you dip your toe into the non-theatrical goo just once because you want play a title and going to Swank seems the easiest way to do it, that goo doesn't come off your toe very easily and you may find that the studio will then consider you non-theatrical forever and will always send you back to Swank for EVERYTHING. THAT little mistake will cost you big over the long haul in percentages. Whereas the studio will charge you typically 35% against the guarantee for an old title and you get to play it as many times as you want and advertise all you want; Swank on the other hand will charge you 50% to 60% against a guarantee (usually higher than the studio's) and they will smother you with non-theatrical restrictions -- no advertising, the guarantee is for one show only, each additional show will cost you more, and if it's a Disney title, yet another set of their bizzare, fascist rules like you can't run it on Saturdays, eventhough it's a title that's in Blockbusters which anyone and his brother can rent for $2 and play it all day on Saturday.

It has been my experience that you don't want to get labled as non-theatrical by the studios. Although we are part of a college, we are a strictly separate entity and are basically leasing the theatre from the college. But there have been the rare occasion when I have used Swank, but only if absolutely no other way around it, such as when we are running something for a college department and there is no admission charged.

Ocassionally with such shows, I still booked with the studio and am willing to risk paying an overage should the body count go over what my guarantee has "purchased" based on the percentage, all so I don't need to go the non-theatrical route.

Sometimes as unpleasant as it may be, you need to just bite the bullet and cross titles off the list that need to be obtained in a way that has the potential of negatively impacting your main operation.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.