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Author Topic: Lucas warns "film" directors to switch or else
Paul Linfesty
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 - posted 07-11-2002 10:17 AM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From the Los Angeles Times today:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-highdef11jul11.story

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Evans A Criswell
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 - posted 07-11-2002 10:45 AM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Only registered users of that site can read it. Can you summarize it for the rest of us?

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site

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Gerard S. Cohen
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 - posted 07-11-2002 11:08 AM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

See Bob Maar's copy pasted below.

Thanks, Bob!


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Bob Maar
(Maar stands for Maartini)


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 - posted 07-11-2002 11:52 AM      Profile for Bob Maar   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Maar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For Evans and everyone else.

July 11, 2002 Talk about it E-mail story Print

COLUMN ONE
Filming Without the Film
High-definition digital cameras, feared by some directors, could end the careers of those unable to make the transition.


Audio

Times writer P.J. Huffstutter discusses digital movie making, courtesy KPCC and "All Things Considered" of National Public Radio.
July 10, 2002 (RealAudio)

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By P.J. HUFFSTUTTER and JON HEALEY, TIMES STAFF WRITERS


NICASIO, Calif. -- Oliver Stone stared in disbelief. Here he was, sitting in a velvet seat in George Lucas' private screening room, listening to the "Star Wars" director foretell the death of film.

To Stone, director of such films as "Platoon" and "JFK," Lucas' vision of digital movie making sounded like blasphemy. Around him, other A-list directors--including Steven Spielberg, Francis Ford Coppola and Robert Zemeckis--fidgeted as Lucas challenged a century of tradition, warning his colleagues to embrace the future or be left behind.

Lucas' blunt message stands at the center of a schism in Hollywood over the fate of film in the film business. New high-definition video cameras and digital editing equipment challenge the longtime supremacy of film. They are cheaper and more flexible. But they also frighten directors and cinematographers who understand every nuance of film. A creative misstep can tarnish a career, so many of those established in the film industry blanch at the thought of showing their inexperience with the latest technology. A colossal mistake, seen by millions of fans, might reveal that they are passe storytellers--easily replaced with younger, cheaper and more tech-savvy rivals.

"Film is what we do. It's what we use," Stone sniped at Lucas. "You'll be known as the man who killed cinema."

Lucas merely rolled his eyes as Stone waxed about the poetry of celluloid and the coldness of pixels.

Finally, according to those who were there, Lucas interrupted.

"Just watch."

Raising a hand, Lucas cued his demonstration and told his audience what they would see: identical clips--each stored on different formats--from the animated movie "Monsters, Inc."

One was completely electronic--compiled by a computer, stored on digital tape and shown through a digital projector. In footage looking less like a motion picture and more like an open window onto a real world, the monsters gabbed in crisp clarity and rich tones.

Next came a traditional film reel that spent four weeks in a mall theater. With each showing, heat from the projector and dust in the air faded and degraded the reel. The difference was jarring. Radically out of focus, the film reel cast an image on the screen that jiggled and popped, as if an earthquake were rocking the projector.

Lights came up as the demonstration ended. No one spoke for several seconds.

Debate within the industry is not nearly so quiet.

For directors such as Lucas, the choice is obvious. Breaking new ground for major motion pictures, his "Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones" was shot entirely with high-definition digital cameras, edited with digital equipment and, for a few dozen theaters, distributed and projected digitally.

Testing the Technology

Spotting the change, a growing number of filmmakers have been testing the digital waters. From students and independent filmmakers capturing their low-budget works on digital video to established directors such as Michael Mann testing high-definition cameras in "Ali," they are curious about the new tools and fearful of being left behind.

But after nearly a century of using film, much of Hollywood's old guard is reluctant to shift gears, a reticence that speaks to a powerful culture of fear among some of the industry's most elite directors.

"Film is rather like the magic lantern. There's a sense of mystery, because you don't know what's going into the magic black-box camera until you send the film to the lab," said cinematographer Roger Deakins, director of photography for Ron Howard's film "A Beautiful Mind."

"With digital, it's all very businesslike," Deakins said. "We're not businessmen. We're artists and magicians."

Despite significant advances in the art and science of film since the first roll of flexible celluloid was produced in 1889, the basic process remains the same: Chemicals layered on the surface of the film react when they are exposed to light, changing into hues that match the light's wavelength.

Digital cameras, which began to appear in the mid-1990s, use powerful computer chips that convert light into electronic pulses, which they then translate into data and store on videotape.

With the first cameras, the images were unusually crisp and realistic but no match for the smooth lines and range of colors delivered by 35-millimeter film. Those differences stemmed partly from the cameras' chips, which couldn't capture as much information as film, and partly from the technology used to shrink and store the data.

Sony Corp., Panasonic and other manufacturers developed high-definition digital cameras in the late 1990s that could deliver far more detail and a wider range of color. This summer, Thomson Grass Valley is bringing out a new line of cameras that can capture almost five times as much detail and twice the range of color as previous high-definition models, said Jeff Rosica, vice president of marketing.

Frugality also is pushing studios and filmmakers to consider digital tools. Advocates insist that the technology cuts costs, partly by eliminating key parts of the movie-making process. For example, there's the time-honored--and time-consuming--ritual of handling "dailies."

When a day of shooting wraps, the crew sends the footage to a processing lab. After the film negatives have been developed, the reel is returned to the set. The director and often the crew gather inside a screening room. Then they cross their fingers.

Shoot-and-Pray Method

What they want to see up on the screen--and what the camera actually captured--aren't always the same. Perhaps the spotlights burned too brightly and washed out the image. Maybe the director didn't spot the catering truck parked in the background. If someone loaded the film into the camera incorrectly, the reel might be blank.

"With film, you get 60% of what you want," said director Robert Rodriguez. "In film, cinematography is the art of guessing."

Each mistake, each reshoot, eats up time and money. The shoot-and-pray cycle is nearly erased with digital cameras, because the images can be viewed instantly.

By replacing film in the cameras with videotape and speeding the flow of work, Lucas saved at least $3 million in production costs on "Attack of the Clones," producer Rick McCallum said. That's a small fraction of the movie's $100-million budget, but "when you're financing it yourself, and you're financing the marketing, anything you can do to be more cost-efficient helps," he said.

The need to cut production costs led News Corp.-owned 20th Century Fox Television and the executive team behind the series "The Education of Max Bickford" to take the digital plunge. The tactic worked, said producer Rod Halcomb, who estimated that the crew saved as much as $25,000 per episode in post-production and filming costs.

Regardless of the savings and technical innovation, no tool could save "Max Bickford": CBS dropped the series after its first year.

"Digital technology is the director's friend, just in principle. Because of it, directors can come closer to realizing what's in their minds," said director Ron Howard. "I'm open to it. I'm just not open to using it until all the bugs are worked out."

A Digital Weak Spot

Managing the problems of a digital set remains a daunting task, since such "bugs" can eat up much of the savings that the digital process promises.

Amid the ashy dust of the Mojave Desert, just up a worn road from the boarded-up Oasis Motel, "Confidential Report 001" director Chris Coppola sits and waits impatiently for the crew to set up the cameras.

"This was supposed to be a $600,000 independent film," said Coppola, nephew of Francis Ford Coppola. "Now, we're way, way over budget."

The culprit, the younger Coppola said, is the high-definition gear. Two of the Sony cameras died in the last month as dust and heat made the computer electronics useless. The cameras' computer chips, which are sensitive to distance, can require more time to set up a shot than traditional gear. Then there was the mysterious blue pixel.

"We played back the footage and there it is, in random spots: a single blue pixel," said director of photography Andrew Giannetta. "No one knows why. Even Sony told us, 'We don't know what's wrong. If you figure it out, and figure out how to fix it, tell us.' "

One of the most difficult artistic hurdles is manipulating the look of the footage. Film blurs colors together around their edges, but digital cameras achieve a clarity that strikes some as harsh.

Unexpected Clarity

For filmmakers such as Rodriguez, this sense of clarity fits into his stylized action films. While recently shooting actor Johnny Depp in "Once Upon a Time in Mexico," the director relied solely on digital cameras.

The tools picked up every detail, and uncovered the unexpected.

"I always thought Johnny Depp's eyes were black," Rodriguez said. "On the playback monitor, I realized they are really a light caramel color. If the eyes are the window of the soul, what ... are we doing shooting film and blurring that window?"

Reality, however, doesn't fit into the vision of every filmmaker. For some, manipulating what the eye sees is the goal.

While working on the "Max Bickford" series, director of photography Michael Mayers tried pairing various digital cameras with the lenses and filters he often used when shooting with traditional film.

Again and again, the equipment from these two worlds failed to work together and fell short of giving him the look he wanted. The images appeared far too sharp for the softer, cinematic feel of the script, Mayers said.

Ultimately, he found his solution at the grocery store: Saran Wrap. The plastic sheets, when attached to a camera lens, gave the footage a subtle diffusion he wanted.

"Not everyone is comfortable taking on this type of challenge," said Eric Brevig, an Academy Award-winning visual-effects supervisor at Lucas' special effects shop, Industrial Light & Magic. "A lot of people are testing out high-definition cameras in secret. They're terrified of making mistakes."

They have reason to be, as the technological evolution in movies has left behind a landscape littered with casualties. When sound was added to film, thousands of musicians lost their jobs because theaters no longer employed live orchestras to accompany silent movies. A generation of actors failed to make the transition, and directors weren't spared.

Onetime Hollywood giants such as Rex Ingram, who directed "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse," and Fred Niblo, who directed "Ben-Hur" and Douglas Fairbanks Sr. in "The Mark of Zorro," quickly disappeared as the new tools became part of daily life.

Digital cameras herald a similar and potentially traumatic shift. Directors and cinematographers face a terrifying question: What happens if you lack the skills to continue telling stories in a world in which the narrative tools have fundamentally changed?

"You become afraid," said cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki. "I'd spent 20 years learning how to use a film camera. Now, I had to pick up something new, and there were all these other people who were far better at using this new technology than I was."

While working as director of photography on "Ali," Lubezki spent time scouting locations and photographing them in the middle of the night using a digital video camera.

The result "was so different and interesting," he said, that director Michael Mann asked him to re- create the surreal feel of the footage with a film camera. After weeks of experimentation, the cinematographer realized he couldn't do it. The only alternative was to use a high-definition digital camera--something he had never used.

"I took classes. I made mistakes," Lubezki said. "I was afraid. I didn't know if I could make it work. But I did, and it was worth it. This is different from film. Not better or worse but different. You can't let fear of the unknown prevent you from taking that chance."

Oliver Stone agrees. Several days after seeing the digital camera demonstration at Lucas' ranch, Stone called an executive at ILM.

The firm had been responsible for figuring out how to make the connection between the digital camera and the post-production effects work on the latest "Star Wars" movie and has close ties to several camera manufacturers.

"Listen, I know you're going to shoot me for this," Stone said to the executive. "But I'm starting work on a new project. Do you know where I can get ahold of some high-def cameras?"

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

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 - posted 07-11-2002 12:48 PM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here we have yet another moronic article that makes no distinction between filming and projection. How is a demo of computer animation supposed to convince someone what kind of camera to use?

Like a lot of other aritcles on the subject, this author chooses to compare the introduction of digital filmmaking to the introduction of sound, which is utterly ridiculous. It's much more comparable to the introduction of single-strip color (as opposed to three-strip color). A stated goal for many digital cinema companies is to create something that's "indistinguishable from film". If it's truly indistinguishable, why would the audience care? To them, it's just another movie -- they don't care what kind of camera was used. This is nothing like the introduction of sound. Nobody's going to get "left behind" because they stick with film. I thought this kind of wild eyed techno-hype died with the dot-com era.

On the other hand, it is refreshing for once to see one of these article talking about the fact that electroncis have problems, too. The reaction from Sony ("We don't know what's wrong. If you figure it out, and figure out how to fix it, tell us.") to the problems Coppola was having sounds pretty typical for dealing with a large electronics engineering firm. Digital filmmakers better get used to that sort of thing.

And I've still yet to see an article about film vs. digital that didn't incorrectly refer to film as "celluloid".


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Darryl Spicer
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 - posted 07-11-2002 01:10 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmmmmmmm wonder when this interview took place. Wonder why Mucus, I mean Lucas, didn't use Attack of the Clones as the demo to compare too. Maybe because it looks like shit digitaly as well as on film with the soft images of the characters compared to the crisp images of the filled in CGI work. I could get that film sharp in focus on all the cgi work but the live action, videoed with the digital cameras, was out of focus.

How do we know if that print of monsters was four weeks old. It could have been 8 weeks or even 12 weeks old. Maybe he needs to use a print that has been treated with filmguard for twelve weeks. Nah, that would just make him want to go back to using film instead of video.

A true artist paints with a paint brush not a mouse pointer.

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Mike Blakesley
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 - posted 07-11-2002 02:02 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What's really needed is to find out what "mall cinema" that Monsters print was at, and give the projectionists there a lesson in "film done right."

The most frustrating thing is that these high-end directors are being led to think that ALL film exhibition is crappy, and we are powerless to prove otherwise because these guys probably hardly ever set foot in a real theatre.

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

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 - posted 07-11-2002 03:06 PM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we had a disucussion at one point at some time somewhere in this vast endless supply of conversations that "Celluloid" is still an acceptable term to use to refer to film, although maybe no longer technically applicable. Don't get to hard on people for using the term, they aren't as smart as we are.

As for who are all these directors that were there. The article pointed to a few well known ones, and also included Robert Rodriguez, who I am quite sure has spent time in a real theater at some point in his life, most come from nowhere indie directors did.

The comment on that the advent of digital cinematography bieng compared to the advent of sound not being applicable or even close is missing the point. The point was to compare a time where a new technology changed the way films were made and presented, which either left a slew of filmmakers in the dust or forced them to come along for the ride. Many filmmakers could not make the adjustment, and were long forgotten. Such would be the case here, with the change to digital filmmaking and presentation, several people could be lost in the fray, so you either play along, or try to keep things the way they are. Most are fearful of getting forgotten, so they will at least learn and experiment with the new technologies.

I will agree that showing a digital version of Monsters inc, a digitally produced digital feature, vs. a film version is pretty moronic, and anyone there who bought into it is not to bright, mr. stone.

I admire those who take the forefront of technology, but still remember that you should not lose what you have for the sake of change itself.

Shame on Mr. Lucas. He may think he is a god, but the numbers on SW2 prove he is not.

Dave

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Paul G. Thompson
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 - posted 07-11-2002 06:12 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder how big Lucas's screen was. The size of a bathroom wall?

And when digital projection does take hold, who is going to pay for the damn thing?

With most of the crap that is being released now, many momma and poppa theatres have all they can do to pay their bills!

Maybe that is what Lucas wants....the fall of the independents.

....and with the numbers on SW1 and SW2 were not that great as compared to others, who is he to talk?


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Tom Fermanian
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 - posted 07-11-2002 06:57 PM      Profile for Tom Fermanian   Email Tom Fermanian   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah SWEP2 biting the dust here in Quebec!,Georgie and his henchman are not relenting on terms so nobody except those that started with the film are left showing it, no new engagements, the number of theatres playing it is dropping dramaticly every week,(BTW NOT 1 DIGITAL ENGAMENT IN THIS PROVINCE) Didn't Georgie & pals try and force NATO and others, by using their websites, to get theatres to switch from 35 to electronic? all these by downgrading 35 in the eyes of the web public?

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 07-11-2002 08:09 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The "mysterious blue pixel" was obviously a dead pixel in one of the cameras CCD chips. I see it all the time in video cameras. I'm sure Sony denied knowing what it was because they didn't want to say "Our products can fail". They wanted it to sound extremely rare, when in fact it really isn't.

I think the directors listening to Lucas were morons. He shows an example of DLP that was digitally generated in the first place. Then he shows the worst film copy of that same scene he can. He probably rejected a dozen better looking reels before he came up with that one. Guaranteed. He may have also had his projectionist intentionally damage it a bit further. And these directors seemed to buy what he was saying because of this fabulous demo. I wish I was there.


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Neil Hunter
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 - posted 07-11-2002 08:45 PM      Profile for Neil Hunter   Email Neil Hunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The fact that Lucas made his point with a comparison of a digital copy and a USED 35MM reel from a mall cinema was rediculous.

If he were to truly compare the two, he would have used a new 35MM reel along with the digital copy.

I also noticed the lack of distinction between shooting movies in digital and presenting them in digital. The writers of this article are ambiguous on that point.


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Aaron Haney
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 - posted 07-11-2002 09:01 PM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The comment on that the advent of digital cinematography bieng compared to the advent of sound not being applicable or even close is missing the point. The point was to compare a time where a new technology changed the way films were made and presented, which either left a slew of filmmakers in the dust or forced them to come along for the ride.
All technological change is not the same. Some technologies allow you to do things you couldn't do before. Other technologies allow you to do the same things as before, just in a different way. The introduction of sound was the former; digital cinema is the latter. I feel this distinction makes the author's comparison a bit of a stretch.

My point about not calling film "celluoid" is that people who do so (like the author of this article) often seem to be doing it in an attempt to make themselves appear knowledgable and authoritative. Such pretentiousness only works if what one is saying is correct, and in this case, it isn't.

Sorry if I'm coming across as angry or defensive, but I do feel rather strongly about that first point. The second one ... well, I suppose you're right, in the end it doesn't matter. But I still find it annoying.

Side note: I'm a little surprised that the article claims digital cameras capture a greater "color range" than film. In every color gamut chart I've seen, the HTDV color space, while slightly bigger than NTSC, is dwarfed by that of film.

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Brad Miller
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 - posted 07-11-2002 09:02 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
If Lucas wants a FAIR comparison, then a QUALITY reel of something originated on film (not video) and with anamorphics needs to be compared to his DLP transfer side by side. Lucas can sit and restart his DLP over and over and I can run that reel of film over and over. We could do this for days, weeks or months...but there is no reason for the film to degrade in quality, get dirty or scratched.

Lucas is slanting the comparisons just like TI did when they tried to get me to run a reel of film (that was BEATEN TO SHIT) split screen with their DLP "print" of the same material. Had they given me a new print or one that had been properly taken care of, I would have been pleased to embarass them with it.

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Mike Schindler
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 - posted 07-12-2002 04:06 AM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But isn't it true that, for the most part, prints are not taken care of? I don't know about the rest of the country, but here in Chicago, unless you go to one of a very few select theaters, you're pretty much screwed. I think that film does look better than digital on opening day. But in general, digital will look better than film a month down the road.

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