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Author Topic: My first deceased ICP certificate battery Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 09-05-2019 09:41 PM                        Thought this was worth mentioning, as the battery being soldered onto the board means that when this happens, a new ICP is needed; which in turn means a big ticket part and potentially significant down time while it is in transit. This was in an NEC NC3240S-A, that had been manufactured in August 2011. It had only done 18,642 hours before the ICP failure, meaning that it has spent a lot more time powered down than a projector would in a typical multiplex pattern of usage. Given that these ICP batteries are claimed to have an average lifetime of 10 years, and this one has likely lasted 8-9 (I'm assuming that the ICP was manufactured by TI a few months before final assembly of the projector), this sounds about right. The reported errors when I found it were: 120 : DLP Ack Fail 301 : System Error 302 : Self Test Error 305 : Key Error 306 : Certificate Error 336 : Red Satellite Serial Link Error 337 : Red Satellite Firmware Configuration Error 343 : Green Satellite Serial Link Error 344 : Green Satellite Firmware Configuration Error 350 : Blue Satellite Serial Link Error 351 : Blue Satellite Firmware Configuration Error 370 : ICP Frame Memory Test Result Fail 372 : ICP Data Path Signature Test Result Fail Obviously, the 306 means that the ICP has gone out, whatever else might be wrong. I did try a firmware reflash just in case, but no luck. Replaced the ICP with a new one today, and after flashing it to 4.54 and restoring the settings backup, all was good. Just for giggles, I measured the voltage on the cert battery of the dead ICP - 2.48, so that was the problem, alright. IMHO, there are two takeaways from this. Firstly, owners and operators of early Series 2 projectors, especially those in arthouse and other low hours theaters (that have spent a larger proportion of their life powered down, and therefore with the battery draining), should be prepared to replace their ICP at any moment (a bill likely to be in the mid-four figures). Service techs should be prepared for ICPs to start going out in significant numbers.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 09-05-2019 11:17 PM                     If the OEMs had any class, they'd be proactive about this and get RX units prepared since every S2 projector is going to suffer this fate and since most went in between 2010 and 2013, they are all going to start dropping next year. Rather than having to buy a new ICP in order to obtain the battery, if they did an RX program, it could be a much smaller nominal fee for a new battery and certificate. As Leo indicated, the ICP isn't cheap.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 09-06-2019 01:19 AM                     Aren't there even laws in place in certain areas of the world limiting the amount that can be charged for the replacement of obvious consumable items, like batteries? I know there are such laws in place in Europe for consumers regarding mobile phones, but they're probably not applicable to business contracts. There have to be some applicable precedents about stuff that's essentially engineered to fail and who's responsible for the repairs in such cases. We're talking about the same companies that are eager to point out that the spare part we bought from them is a consumable and henceforth only enjoys a very limited warranty...  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 09-06-2019 03:59 AM                     Leo, now that you have a dead ICP lying around - what about analyzing the battery circuit to see wether there are options to replace the battery on a living device? It can't be too complicated to apply a temporary backup source? There is a pin header next to the cert battery - any chances the battery contacts can be measured through around it? Any way the adjacent clock battery could be used as a temporary backup source? I know this is not for the faint-hearted. Would be better if the OEMs would offer a preliminary exchange program, so those near-EOL ICPs could be salvaged in a smooth transition. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 09-06-2019 04:13 AM                     There will be a way, but even if you do find a way, when are you going to do this the first time on a borderline-but-still-operating ICP?  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 09-06-2019 04:44 AM                     If you feel safe enough doing it, just consider the manufacturing date, or measure the battery voltage (carefully). There's just one inch distance from the positive of the clock keeper battery to the positive of the cert battery. Wondering if they share a common GND/- ? That would make it easy-peasy... I would probably set a bridge wire between the two '+', then clip the '+' contact of the cert battery. Then one would have to get rid of the '-' beneath somehow (wiggling...?). I have no pictures of the ICP bottom PCB side around the batteries. Leo, can you supply one now? BTW - 18642 hrs in 8 years is 6-7 hrs per day. I know many systems with fewer hours than that. And, series 2 deployment started in late 2009/early 2010. So, the first ICPs have been manufactured in 2009. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 09-06-2019 07:09 AM                     What's the manufacturer's (TI) explanation for soldering the certs battery on the PCB? I'm curious.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-06-2019 07:14 AM                     I have locations nine years old with Gen 1 ICP's and over 30K hours and the battery is still fine. I was told by TI that the expected life is between 10 and 12 years, which they consider to be the life span of a typical projector. I have no idea HOW they manage to get more than shelf life out of a standard battery, unless the board is also charging it. I did have an ICP crap out when I was changing the clock battery. NEC claims there is a super capacitor across that battery and that it was probably bad. I had an ICP fail in a similar way to Leo's last year, also in a 3240, but at a drive in. They were pretty sure there was a lightening strike very close to the booth and it may have caused this failure. Note that changing that battery should be a breeze. You just need to jumper the same power across the one there and then change it using an isolated tip soldering iron. Similar to way you change the batteries on earlier GDC media blocks by placing the same batteries across the terminals while changing them out. Mark  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 09-06-2019 07:48 AM                     quote: Carsten Kurz I would probably set a bridge wire between the two '+', then clip the '+' contact of the cert battery. Then one would have to get rid of the '-' beneath somehow (wiggling...?). I have no pictures of the ICP bottom PCB side around the batteries. Leo, can you supply one now? There must be some other points on the backup power bus on that board, which can be connected to a temporary, parallel power source. quote: Marco Giustini What's the manufacturer's (TI) explanation for soldering the certs battery on the PCB? I'm curious. I guess it's their way to say: Don't remove this or you're in deep shit.  |  IP: Logged Bruce Cloutier Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Gibsonia, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2016 posted 09-06-2019 08:38 AM                        Look to see if a soldered-in battery appears a little bloated as if there was a little internal pressure that has taken it away from being flat. From experience with the JNIOR Series 3 batteries, they may get shorted by the wave soldering process (depending on the orientation) and that ends up reducing the battery life. Also, if a tech sets the board down on a metal surface and there are (+) and (-) pins that may get shorted. Again, this impacts the life. This is one of the reasons that we went to the replaceable battery in the Series 4. Partly for your convenience in replacing the battery but partly to insure that the battery you get lives for a long as it can. Of course, there is nothing critical in our case like certificates being saved (they are in flash). Maybe if you see a bloated battery you might be a little more proactive in getting it replaced in case it is in fact going to die on you before its time.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 09-06-2019 09:04 AM                        Agreed that replacing the battery is theoretically possible. There are two contacts on the underside of the board, covered by a blob of plasticky stuff (presumably to insure against accidental shorting when the board is being handled) - this was what I peeled off on the dead one to measure the voltage. I see no reason why you couldn't solder a 3v source onto those temporarily. The problem is that if you attempt to do that surgery on a living device, you could kill it if anything goes wrong, which will leave you having to provide the customer with a new, replacement ICP. The only point at which you have nothing to lose is after it's died anyways, at which point it cannot be resurrected. quote: Marco Giustini What's the manufacturer's (TI) explanation for soldering the certs battery on the PCB? I'm curious. It isn't a DCI requirement, because Barco's new ICP-X (the ICP you can buy for the SP4K range, if you don't want to put an Alchemy in it) has user-replaceable batteries: the same dual CR2477N holder as is in the Alchemy, in fact. When I asked this same question, but in the context of why Dolby were replacing the battery holders in the cat745 with a soldered on battery whenever one is sent in for re-certing, someone (can't remember who - could have been Mark or Harold) suggested that the resistance that can build up on spring-loaded battery terminals can make the contact unreliable over time, especially when the current draw is very low. That is the only justification I can think of besides blatant profiteering.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-06-2019 09:24 AM                     I think that's nonsense Leo. GDC has a battery holder in all their servers and never had contact issues. Knowing Dolbly it was to save a few bucks and eliminate parts from stock. Dolbly is now run by a BOD, not the highly smart individual that used to. The TI battery is a very critical part and they likely did not want the unknowing pulling it out and destroying the board. Mark  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 09-06-2019 09:34 AM                        The cynic in me agrees with you; though media block manufacturers have addressed the risk of someone accidentally pulling the battery with plastic covers over the holder and labels with words to the effect of "Don't f*** with this, pal, unless you know what you're doing." As you pointed out in an earlier post, TI likely figured that very few projectors are likely to be in service for more than a decade, and therefore the number of projectors outliving their ICPs would be small enough to be a non-issue. The reality, however, is that many early Series 2 machines are still operating reliably, approaching a decade after their introduction; and their owners are likely waiting on the sidelines until the xenon to laser transition shakes down and beds in, and an investment in laser can be made with real confidence.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 09-06-2019 10:24 AM                     No...the reason for the soldered in battery is exactly as Leo stated. For critical things like the certificate, it was the only way to guarantee that things like contact issues wouldn't cause it to fail. I just checked on a dead ICP I have here, the two negative terminals are together. The header pins to the right indicate, at some level both batteries feed some of them via diodes, since the two batteries are absolutely NOT tied to each other so perhaps the battery change battery is already cooked in so long as the RTC battery is good, one could change the certificate battery...just a thought. I didn't see where putting a jumper on any of those header pins tied the two together sans diode so that isn't it. As for GDC...they have had their share of certificate failures. GDC's solution also was that they have two batteries in parallel so the odds that BOTH batteries have contact issues at the same time is minimal.  |  IP: Logged Bruce Cloutier Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Gibsonia, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2016 posted 09-06-2019 10:27 AM                        The obvious question is why are the security certificates stored in battery backed memory and not in highly protected flash of some kind? I guess that is some level of protection against tampering. Maybe that's someone's requirement?  |  IP: Logged

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