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Author Topic: ATMOS Speaker Torsten Juergens Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Flensburg / Germany Registered: Oct 2013 posted 05-19-2019 06:18 AM                     Hi, We would like to convert our 120 seat place to ATMOS. Are there any other suppliers of ceiling or surround speakers beside JBL and KCS? I have no data from KCS. But when I look at JBL's data and curves: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/scs-spatially-cued-surround-loudspeakers/scs-8# or http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/scs-spatially-cued-surround-loudspeakers/scs-12# and the requirements of Dolby https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-specifications.pdf with regard to the maximum generated sound pressure required per loudspeaker on the RLP, this may still be the case at our small place with "tolerable" distortions. What does it look like in the big cinemas? Purely mathematical with utopian Xmax and just such an amplifier performance on paper it is indeed possible but soundly in the order of distortion and compression level certainly cruel. At the diaphragm sizes and crossover frequencies of these coaxial chassis, off-axis is also not really true constant directivity. I was visiting a mid size cinema with 500 seats and at the first moment it sounds great. But when the sound pressure level increased the sound was gone and it was only load. If you try now with commercially available chassis to meet the specifications, you have a tough nut to crack. Best regards Torsten  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 05-19-2019 08:06 AM                        I had the opportunity to work with Dolbys line of SLS loudspeakers for Atmos and they were much better than I was expecting. They also offer a rapid rigging system however it was not used on this job.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-20-2019 06:34 AM                     QSC's SR-1290 and SR-1590 are pretty impressive units (also coax speakers). https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/loudspeakers/surround-loudspeakers/ Dolby has their SLS line, including the MA390C ("eyeball" type speaker). https://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/cinema/products/sls-3-axis-speaker-ma390c.html  |  IP: Logged Torsten Juergens Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Flensburg / Germany Registered: Oct 2013 posted 05-20-2019 11:16 PM                     Thanks for your tips. First of all, I have to see where there are installations here in Germany to hear the differences and maybe there are more measured data of these speakers to find.  |  IP: Logged Andrew Carr Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Toronto, ON Canada Registered: Jan 2016 posted 05-22-2019 12:27 PM                        Christie Vive is a product to look at. The resources section has some good info on setup. https://www.christiedigital.com/documents/landing-pages/viveaudio/viveaudio.html Also, Dolby has some great videos on Vimeo regarding design and setup. https://vimeo.com/280122204  |  IP: Logged Stephan Shelley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 854 From: castro valley, CA, usa Registered: Nov 2014 posted 05-22-2019 01:06 PM                     If you have a BIG budget Myers has excellent speakers with a large price tag but they sure sound good if one can afford.  |  IP: Logged Torsten Juergens Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Flensburg / Germany Registered: Oct 2013 posted 05-30-2019 03:40 AM                     I found the best solution for me. It's this surround speaker from Alcons. https://www.alconsaudio.com/product/crs8-9090/ With a special Ribbon-Horn combination. https://www.alconsaudio.com/proribbon/ For many years already our screen system has the SA8535 ribbon in place. https://www.stageaccompany.com/support/downloadnew/8535_techdoc.pdf Unfortunately, it is offered for quality reasons only in bundle with one of these power amplifier. https://www.alconsaudio.com/product/sentinel-3/ https://www.alconsaudio.com/product/sentinel-10/ For us probably unaffordable. Whether and which compromise for me then comes into question is a difficult decision.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 05-30-2019 04:37 AM                     quote: The CRS8 HF section has an 800W peak power input, enabling a 1:16 dynamic range with up to 90% less distortion from 1kHz. to beyond 20kHz. What does "1:16 dynamic range" mean?  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-30-2019 05:55 AM                     Well, you can look at SLS speakers, a Dolby product. I'm not sure what they use in the Dolby theatres... it used to be Christie speakers but that was before they acquired SLS.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-30-2019 10:19 AM                     Am still not understanding why anyone would want Atmos??? Marketing perhaps, but most of the systems are incredibly disapointing. And its been totally unimpressive from the mix end as well. I think a really good 7.1 system is a far better investment that you'd be using the next 25+ years. As for speakers, I would avoid ribbons and line arrays like the plague! We had a company here in the States producing ribbon speakers for Cinema and it was a near disaster. There is way too much screen loss so that the ribbons have to be pushed fairly hard. I believe this loss may even be worse on new screens intended to minimize moire on digital projectors. Anyway, this resulted in many shattered ribbon drivers over time. Line arrays have a whole lot of nasties going on with phasing and interaction between cones. They are fine for PA speakers of limited bandwidth though. Christie Vive reminds me a lot of the Bose Cinema System back in it's day (1980's). They used a lot of (five dollar) drivers to make a lot of (not very good) noise. The Bose subwoofer was ok, and pretty interesting in itself. That whole system disappeared within 2 years. Mark  |  IP: Logged Andrew Carr Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Toronto, ON Canada Registered: Jan 2016 posted 05-30-2019 02:09 PM                        ^ I remember hearing the same thing when 5.1 came out. "Speakers behind me? This is just a fad and will never catch on!" They probably said the same thing about stereo. I do think the Universal ATMOS music remixes are a little much though...  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-30-2019 02:56 PM                     Actually, that was VERY true to hear that of early 5.1 systems!! Many systems were hastily installed on to old tube amplifiers and decripid RCA or Altec stage speakers left over from the 4 track mag days. Many low quality Eprad and Smart processors went in so theater owners could post IN Stereo on the marquee. Can't tell you how many of those types of systems I ran across in Midwest States during my early servicing days and how many we upgraded. Even the latest Altec A-4 systems didnn't exist then... If you had worked in the late 70's and early 80's you'd agree that today we have speaker technology beyond our wildest dreams and we ought to have sound quality to match. When people have paid extra to go to a movie presented in a special format, they expect smething spectaculuar. They got that up until the advent of Digital Sound. But when even today high end 70mm 6-track magnetic remains the defacto standard by which other sound systems are compared, well that pretty much sums up that the industry has gone backwards. Its been reported recently to me that there exist at least several Atmos systsems that have been properly time aligned after installation. I have added several of those places to my list of theatres to vsit, because they have been aligned using Smaart technology. But even at that, I am not expecting a lot because the mixes themselves are typically pretty unimpressive. Mark  |  IP: Logged Jarod Reddig Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 513 From: Hays, Ks Registered: Jun 2011 posted 05-30-2019 08:23 PM                     IMO Alcons are some of the best speakers in the world and would be my choice. Any prior opinions on ribbons should be pushed to the side until one has heard these. But as you said they are very pricey. I think QSC would be the realistic choice.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-31-2019 07:55 AM                     I haven't found speaker technology today to be all THAT much better. HF horn technology has come along a bit. An Altec A4 (210 cabinet) or A5 (825/828 cabinet) performed quite well and the 288 compression driver remains a pretty solid piece that, acoustically, does well. I'd take an A4 or A5 over most speakers in production today (in the proper rooms, of course). The JBL 4675 was a significant speaker and evolved pretty well and remains better than 90% of what is made today. Whether you want to believe it or not, most 3-ways suck. There ARE some good speakers made today for cinema but it isn't this gold mine of great ones that you lead one on to believe. To me, most ribbons sound okay at first and then get very nasty as they get pushed. I've yet to hear one sound so good in their good range to make me want to fool with them. As for Atmos, what I like about it is that it is more structured than other sound systems. That is, where the speakers go is well defined and how the sound is presented is well defined. With 5.1 and 7.1 you get more of an interpretation that can vary from site to site. I'm amazed at how many theatres with 5.1 systems that don't have surround speakers on the rear wall. From a soundtrack mix perspective, back in the magnetic days with mono surrounds, where the speakers were relative to the person mixing the movie was uniform from dub stage to theatre. Once you moved to stereo surrounds, you mostly kept that but the shape of the room (and how well the designer did the surround array), the perspective of where the audio was emanating from was influenced by the shape of the room. With 7.1, the room itself plays a bigger factor since if it is long and skinny, the rear surrounds are distant, but if the room is short and fat, they are close. So, the shape of the auditorium versus the dub stage creates a difference. The sound isn't well located in the 5.1 or 7.1 system yet the room is providing some artificial location. With Atmos, the relative speaker location to the prime seats is much better defined so that the mix in the dub stage and in the theatre once again match much better. I also like that that each speaker now is EQed and level balanced.  |  IP: Logged Jarod Reddig Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 513 From: Hays, Ks Registered: Jun 2011 posted 06-01-2019 09:32 PM                     The Alcons CR4 is the best cinema speaker ive ever heard. Try to hear some in a good room some day Steve. They sound like giant JBL M2's. The JBL 4675 is one of my favorite all time cinema speakers. I used 4722n's for awhile in my own personal theater.  |  IP: Logged

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