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Topic: Barco Series 4

Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 04-23-2019 01:48 PM

I don't know if this is in line with the forum rules (if not: apologies); but I would like to use this format to collect feedback and spur some interaction on the new Barco Series 4 range of projectors.

I know many of you saw the product as it was launched at CCON: any burning questions? Any first feedback you want to share?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-23-2019 03:36 PM

I think it is the future of projection in cinemas. .98" format 4K that runs on an RGB laser with what looks to be easily serviceable and lower cost parts.

We'll see how it prices out but overall, it seemed impressive.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 04-23-2019 08:17 PM

At first sight, it looks pretty impressive. A new range of "mid sized" 4K RGB laser machines could be a nice upgrade for anybody now running their Series 1 machines on the edge, or for those who are looking for an upgrade path for an early series 2 install.

There are some obvious questions though, that come to my mind:

- We've had this discussion here before, but what about speckle? Do I need screen shakers or will there be a list of "known-to-be-good" screen solutions?

- Longevity of the laser light source. The specs may claim "brightness stability" up to 40k hours for normal use, but what is "brightness stability" and what is considered to be normal use?

- Will Barco honor some kind of special warranty for light sources that fail long before their expected lifetime, but aren't covered by the standard warranty anymore?

- What are the expected replacement costs of a failed laser light source, compared to the purchase costs of a new machine?

- If it's an RGB laser solution, why are color separation 3D solutions not supported?

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 04-24-2019 03:24 AM

All good questions!

quote:
- We've had this discussion here before, but what about speckle? Do I need screen shakers or will there be a list of "known-to-be-good" screen solutions?

We did the demo at CCON on a 1.7 gain silver screen; we have done customer VIP demos on 2.4 gain. Once you go higher than gain 2.0 on silver screen, the same "caution" is required as on Flagship Laser: be careful. Some people see speckle on those gains, some people don't see anything at all. Things like viewing angle and viewing distance also play.

But in general: we have never used screen vibration; we also don't use/need it on S4.

quote:
- Longevity of the laser light source. The specs may claim "brightness stability" up to 40k hours for normal use, but what is "brightness stability" and what is considered to be normal use?

Normal use in this definition: a mix of 3D (80% power) and 2D (50% power); and an ambient of 25°C. In these conditions you can maintain your max brightness (3D in this mix) constant for 40khrs.

We have calculators to model light performance over time for other use cases. We had to define a reference use case to put a reference number against.

quote:
- Will Barco honor some kind of special warranty for light sources that fail long before their expected lifetime, but aren't covered by the standard warranty anymore?

Yes, this is already part of our SmartCare program. That continues to exist on S4

quote:
- What are the expected replacement costs of a failed laser light source, compared to the purchase costs of a new machine?

We now work with modular laser plates in S4. On the biggest model for example, there are 9 of these plates. You should never have to swap out the full lightsource; but handle 1 plate at a time. https://youtu.be/zkbTg9Edf3w

quote:
- If it's an RGB laser solution, why are color separation 3D solutions not supported?

Because it's 3P RGB; where Flagship Laser was 6P. 6P allows you to use RGB to left eye and R'G'B' to right eye. In 3P RGB, you cannot apply such color separation.

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-24-2019 05:04 AM

"video has been removed by the user"

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 04-24-2019 06:14 AM

Thanks, Tom, for the quick and clear answers.

The video indeed has been removed, I guess it was for internal purposes only? [Smile]

quote: Tom Bert
Because it's 3P RGB; where Flagship Laser was 6P. 6P allows you to use RGB to left eye and R'G'B' to right eye. In 3P RGB, you cannot apply such color separation.

I expected something like this. I know that 3D is a somewhat dying feature, although I expect some resurgence once the first of the Avatar sequels hits the theaters (whenever that may be [Wink]

). There are no immediate plans for a dual projector "6P" (color separation compatible) setup using those S4 projectors?

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 04-24-2019 06:54 AM

There has been a long and stable history of xenon lamp manufacturing, whereas laser light sources (LEDs) supply can hardly benefit from a similar development.

How can we be sure that replacement parts for these very special light sources will be available in 5,8,10 years? What are Barcos thoughts on that? Will it be possible to design a matching laser light source from different parts in the future?

- Carsten

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-24-2019 07:37 AM

The laser light sources on these are pretty cool. They fit in the palm of your hand or somewhere in the 3.5"x3.5" range (give or take). It isn't like the laser engines of current machines.

Seriously, this system, as compared to the LP systems is like the difference between CFLs and LED lamps. Everything about it seemed to be lower cost/higher performance.

It can take EITHER "C" or "B" series lenses (standard is C series but it can be ordered with a "B" mount). As such, anyone replacing a series 2 projector can save even more money by not replacing the lens as well. It also opens the doors to achieving longer throw ratios using the "B" lenses with a .98" chipset.

It is also quiet and most things are removable from the sides rather than having to "pop the top."

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 04-24-2019 09:25 AM

I don't know if it is the same or a similar video Tom wanted to publish, but I found this video on-line that shows the major differences between the "Series 2" and "Series 4" projectors from Barco, including a glimpse of a "Laser plate" at the end of the video.

Edit: Including another promotional rendered video right here.

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Ioannis Syrogiannis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 04-24-2019 11:45 AM

quote: Steve Guttag
It can take EITHER "C" or "B" series lenses (standard is C series but it can be ordered with a "B" mount). As such, anyone replacing a series 2 projector can save even more money by not replacing the lens as well. It also opens the doors to achieving longer throw ratios using the "B" lenses with a .98" chipset.

I guess that, since the “B” lenses are made for/used on a different size of DMD (while the “C” ones are for the same) the same lens may or may not be appropriate for the same screen (auditorium). Meaning, the lens interchange is a granted benefit for replacing C series mostly, not for anyone.
Nonetheless, a great advantage to put into consideration.
(Point made, regarding the recalculated throw ratios with the “B” lenses.)

From what is already known, meaning that the older (S2) ICPs are not to be used with the S4 equipment, we may deduct that the ICMPs won’t be interchangeables too. Please correct me if I miss something here Tom.

From the glimpses I had to the front, it seems like there are three, instead of four, points for correcting scheimpflug. That is not bad, from what we otherwise have seen, but has to be confirmed.

I’ve seen a video on LinkedIn that showcases the modularity of the new series, and I have to admit it was admirable.

There is one or two points that got me thinking after all.
Between them, I wonder if the touch screen instead of the keys would make the handling easier or the use (and therefore the maintenance) more complicated. I wonder if that will make the (input) device more prone to failures.

I have also some unanswered questions about the Web User Interface Communicator software of the new series’ projectors:
I surely welcome it, since such an implementation makes its use even more platform independent and could make its integration in other systems much easier (the same way it was integrated in the Solo G3 servers interface for instance, or the Cinemeccanica ones, but without the need to update on the user’s/server’s side).
Dare I guess that the Alchemy (Commander) Web User Interface, or the program all the same will come to integrate the new communicator, while working on an S4 projector?
At the same time, we don’t know if the Communicator we already know and use for the rest of the Barco equipment (or the attached Communicator Touch Panels) is to keep up with the S4.
We also don’t know if and under what conditions the new communicator’s web interface will be available in sleep(/stand by/low power eco) mode. Nor if the web interface will be available for other uses, like upgrading the software or examining the log files.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-24-2019 01:49 PM

I'm hoping it was a typo on the first video you linked to where they called it a laser-phosphor. It is my understanding (and it is called) RGB. But you do see one of the modules in that first video.

As for the "B" lenses...I think that will appeal to chains that have a bunch of Barco B projectors and are looking towards replacement in the early mid 2020s where they can "pool" their lenses to come up with viable focal lengths to save quite a bit of money on reusing the lenses. I agree, for most, being able to reuse the "C" lenses will be key if one is retiring a series 1 (DP1200-DP2000) or an aging series 2.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 04-24-2019 03:57 PM

@Ioannis - the datasheet says that there will be an ICP based S4 projector version as well. Otherwise, buyers would be tied to ICMP-X only. That would probably be too ambitious, even though I like the ICMP very much myself...

Wondering what the 'X' in ICMP-X stands for - the video quotes 120fps 4k capability...

- Carsten

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 04-24-2019 04:15 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
I'm hoping it was a typo on the first video you linked to where they called it a laser-phosphor. It is my understanding (and it is called) RGB. But you do see one of the modules in that first video.

The video may be a bit confusing, but they're comparing:

integrated phosphor lightsource on Series 2 to
modular RGB laser plates on Series 4

This is according to the captions. They simply want to compare the bulkiness and "non-modular-ness" Series 2 LP laser light source to their new and modular pure-RGB laser diode system.

They might as well have compared it to a bulky, traditional Xenon lamphouse, which still most of the projectors in the field operate on.

quote: Carsten Kurz
Wondering what the 'X' in ICMP-X stands for - the video quotes 120fps 4k capability...

eXtreme?
eXperience?
eXplosion?
neXt?
Secret Formula X?

But yes, I guess it will be the 120fps 4K support, together with some other new or upcoming features we might find out over the coming weeks. [Wink]

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Ioannis Syrogiannis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 04-24-2019 04:16 PM

@Carsten
Right, the ICP that is going to be used, «D», is not the same one used at S2 projectors, hence my guess that the ICMPs won’t be interchangeables between the different series. (Due to different integrated ICPs.)

Yet, that, like other suspicions remains to be seen, or maybe clarified by Tom, who suggested using this thread for burning questions. :-)

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 04-24-2019 04:26 PM

According to the specs:

quote:
Media server: Barco Alchemy ICMP-X and other media server brands** supported

**projector configuration with ICP-D; contact Barco service for the list of supported brands

So, according to the specs, third party IMB systems are or will be supported, using the "ICP-D".

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