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Author Topic: DCI Longevity Brandon Belote Film Handler Posts: 8 From: Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States Registered: Jun 2015 posted 03-08-2019 08:33 PM                        Hi all. My name is Brandon and I am a technician at a one-screen theater in Michigan. We mostly screen first-run indie cinema and the theater is managed by a college (they're not experienced with theater management). Administration has been asking about longevity of the DCI equipment so they can budget for replacement. I'm not very experienced with the lifetime of DCI gear so I wonder if anyone here would like to provide experienced feedback. We are running a Barco DP2K-12C with IMB and ShowVault. Dolby CP750. Barco and Dolby units were installed 2011 and IMB/ShowVault 2014. I could see the CP750 or ShowVault going down. The Barco is more complicated. I don't think whole projector would need replacement. It's xenon lamp and 2K, but I don't imagine DCI compliance will cut those. Seems more likely the ICP, CCB, IMB, key pad or internal components would fail (mirror system or power supply?). Wondering if anyone has seen these units go down and might know lifetime or usual causes for failure. We run movies six days a week, probably 50-55 hours of lamp time. Regular maintenance every month, minimal dust buildup. Barco is pretty clean. Thanks much.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 03-09-2019 02:51 AM                     It's all still pretty recent equipment, within the current support cycle of the manufacturers, so chances that you'll be unable to play new DCP releases are pretty slim. Also, you should still be able to get repairs and spare parts from the manufacturers for your equipment for the next few years. Something similar has recently been discussed in another topic here. Since much of it is still relatively new, the longevity of DCI equipment has been up for debate. In general though, I think it is safe to assume an economic life of 10 years of your DCI equipment. That doesn't mean that you need to throw out your equipment after 10 years, especially if it's still working as expected, but you should be prepared to replace it integrally. So, it means, it's good to have a budget and some replacement plan. Some repairs might pop up that exceed the economic value of the equipment and in such cases, the wiser decision is usually to replace the gear, rather than to sink the money into it for the necessary repairs. With new equipment, also comes new warranty. So, it's not all a clear cut case, some people around here might have different opinions, but this is the way we look at it.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 03-09-2019 06:57 AM                     You probably need to be prepared to spend something in the range of 3000-6000 US$ for equipment or parts that could fail any time. E.g. you need a new sound processor, a new ICP, or a new IMB. That can happen anytime, and will bring your screen down if you don't have the money ready for an immediate replacement. In the long run, it is hard to tell. There is still some series 1 equipment in the field, now approaching 11-12 years. Series 2 equipment has been deployed in larger numbers, and aside from some very few cases, none of it has shown a clear tendency for fundamental breakdowns. Worst thing that can happen is a full light-engine replacement, which will set you back something in the range of 10.000 to 15.000 US$. Changes to DCI requirements will not cut you off your existing equipment. There is too much of that stuff in the field. Your setup is a very typical one. It would be a critical blow if some organization would render it unusable due to some formal compliance considerations. It's DCI compliant, it's SMPTE compatible. Period. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-09-2019 08:35 AM                     I've generally told people that servers are 5-7 year items (though some are going longer than that) and projectors are going to typically be 10-15 year items (again you'll have those that die a bit early but I think in a "bell-curve" the bulk will die there). We've recommended that our singles (and twins and even triples) keep up with warranties on the projectors. It is easier to budget for the $2000-3000/year (depends on make, model, manufacturer) than to quickly find the $2000-$30,000 when something goes wrong! I tell them to think of it as buying the light engine on the 8-year plan. After about 3-screens, your money is better served to buy the spares or even have a spare projector on site to use as a parts collection or even an entire swap. After 3-screens, you could be up to $10K/year in warranty...2-3 years of that and you could have essentially bought everything in the projector or an entire projector (depends on what you are running). As the screen count goes up, the economics shift heavily to being your own parts source for even light-engines and then just getting the ones that fail repaired.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 03-10-2019 12:40 AM                        Although all these items have been on the market for quite a long time, they are all still supported by their manufacturers, and in the case of the projector and the CP750, still in production and available to buy new. From what I've experienced as a service tech, the risk points for your setup are: 1 - Early CP750s have a habit of dying: either a resistor on the power supply board goes out (an easy or cheap fix), or the motherboard develops a fault whereby the output level drops to almost nothing (a repair, the cost of which would lead me to advise you to buy a new CP750, given the age of yours). 2 - The IMB's secure certificate battery. The Doremi software doesn't give you any early warning. I would suggest replacing it ASAP, and thereafter every year if the IMB is not powered up for as long as it would be in a full-time cinema. If it goes and you lose the certificate, your screen is down until it comes back from Dolby after being fixed. 3. Fans and RAID drives in the Showvault. The cost of these is insignificant (in the context of the cost of running a movie theater), and they can be swapped out by anyone who is competent to fix a PC. 4. Various parts in the projector. As others have pointed out, the big ticket parts are the light engine and the ICP, both of which would be a major expense. The lamp power supply module (they do occasionally die) would also be significant, but not as significant as those two. Your projector is old in years (by D-cinema projector standards) but probably not in runtime hours. The bottom line is that it could run for another five years without any problems at all, or one of these big ticket parts could crap out tomorrow. I agree with Steve completely that bringing the projector back under a warranty is worth considering, especially as it's a model that Barco still actively support (and the C series is still made: I installed a brand new 15C a couple of weeks ago). The convention on this site is that we don't post actual price figures for equipment and services that are actively on the market, so I can't put numbers on the above comments - sorry.  |  IP: Logged Stephan Shelley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 854 From: castro valley, CA, usa Registered: Nov 2014 posted 03-10-2019 12:48 AM                     While the Doremi does not have a low voltage warning per say they do warn you every 5 years to replace the battery. Also in the diagnostic tool they show the IMB battery voltage if you have the latest software.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 03-10-2019 08:07 AM                     It is important, though, that you keep track of the battery exchange intervalls. I put a sticker on every machine with a swapped battery that says when the battery has last been replaced, and when the next swap is due. The software warning alone could be misleading. For a ShowVault installed in 2014, one is probably still safe, but should already plan the next swap together with a general service within the next year. It's a complete waste of money to have a tech coming out for hundreds of US$ in travel expenses only to swap a battery worth 1US$. I have seen these quotes - and bills (in €, of course ;-) ... - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 03-10-2019 03:03 PM                        I put a sticker on the faceplate of an IMB after I swap out its battery, too. One other belated thought... The ICP also has a certificate battery, but unlike the one in an IMB, it is soldered onto the board and therefore cannot be replaced in the field (I guess someone might be able to figure out a way based on temporarily connecting a 3V external supply while the contacts are unsoldered and the battery replaced, but I've never heard of it actually having been done). When it dies, you need a new ICP. It is claimed that these batteries are good for 10 years of normal use. Therefore, given the age of the oldest Series 2 projectors out there, I predict that before too long, we'll start seeing threads on the forum reporting deceased ICPs. However, given that the OP's projector is powered down for longer each week than would be the case in a typical multiplex situation, I would advise planning to be able to replace this part at any time. Get a quote from your service vendor for a replacement, ask them what the lead time for delivery would be, and plan accordingly. The bottom line is that if you keep this projector long enough, it's a case of when the ICP dies, not if. The light engine is an if.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 03-10-2019 03:57 PM                     That MIGHT be true. That 10year span is an estimate, though. I have already seen coin batteries survive their predicted life span considerably. So, it may just as well be that we see large number of ICPs die after 15years or longer. Also, with that ICP battery, we are looking at a very isolated aspect of a projector. There could be other issues causing expensive repairs as well, and not every part may be replacable or repairable. See the Barco keypads. A bulb exploding may cause higher cost than a dead ICP, and is more likely to happen, although it will typically be covered by a bulb warranty. Some bulb power supplies are insanely expensive, and I am sure these high load devices do not age well. Wether the cert memory is supported by the battery alone, or, when the ICP is running, by the projector power supply as well - does anyone know it for sure? It's not necessary by design, if we spec a battery for 10years at a very low current, the actual drain may not play a big role, as these batteries die after a certain while even without explicit drain. IF the cert battery is supported by the projector power supply, then the discharge/failure pattern will be very complex. The operating environment will also play a large role - temperature, humidity, oil vapours, dust, etc. all have an impact on parasitic discharge. Also, is there a reason to believe that the RTC battery isn't wired to the cert memory in parallel to support it during replacement? Whatever, until some manufacturer tells us exactly, we can only wait for this to happen. Someone should probably start investigating the battery circuit on an otherwise dead ICP. I guess one could also measure the cert battery voltage carefully when performing an RTC battery swap or board reseat. I guess one should be really careful with the probes and use a very high impedance digital meter. There is a pin header close to the cert battery on all ICPs I have seen, I would be surprised if that isn't meant to support/analyse/swap the battery. Has anyone ever seen a low voltage warning for an ICP, is there a supervisor at all? I would expect TI to have informed the three DLP OEMs about the battery operating conditions so they know what to expect from their equipment in the field. Tom Bert, are you reading this? You should know!?  |  IP: Logged Brandon Belote Film Handler Posts: 8 From: Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States Registered: Jun 2015 posted 03-10-2019 06:53 PM                        Hey all, thanks for your responses so far. Here are a couple things to add. We only have one screen and we're open six days a week (power down one day). I have changed the clock battery in the IMB once. I assume this is the same battery you're talking about–but I thought there were a couple batteries in the IMB. Can you confirm security and clock are same battery? I am definitely hitting the 5 - 7 year span on the ShowVault. Leo said the fans and drives are most likely to go out, but is that what you mean Steve? Or did you intend to say the whole server might need to be replaced after 5 - 7? I do preform the yearly maintenance program and check all the fans. But should I change anything regularly as a preventative measure? I wasn't here at the time of purchase so I'm not sure what the warranty is on the Barco. If it outlives its warranty, is there any downside to keeping it? I know the lamp may outlive its warranty but then there's risk of explosion–like it was mentioned, that would be untold damage. But if the Barco outlives its warranty, I assume there's no reason to trash it–just to replace pieces as they go down. I think you all are making a good point that we're not likely to replace an item after so many years, but rather that we may need $5K set aside at all times in case ICP goes down, $xx.00 in case CP750 burns out, $xx.00 in case IMB needs service, etc.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 03-10-2019 07:50 PM                     There are three replaceable batteries in a typical DCI system - server mainboard ('CMOS battery'), ICP, IMB/media block. Both are spec'd for about 5 years, but can last considerably longer. The one on the mediablock/IMB is critical to be replaced in time, as a failure needs the media block to be send in for reserialization. At some point in time for legacy gear, a manufacturer may choose to no longer reserialize a media block, so you may be forced to buy a new one, or even a full new server just because you let the battery die. The ICP is a bit different, as it has two batteries, one replaceable for RTC, and a non-replaceable for the ICP cert. Some consider the non-replaceable (soldered-in) as being critical, as no reserialization procedures for ICPs have been announced, as if the manufacturer of the ICP planned them to become obsolete after a fixed timespan just because a 1$ battery died. The replaceable one keeping the ICP RTC is not critical, as it is easy to restore the lost clock setting. In general, it is a good idea to replace all three batteries at once during a routine cleaning job. I would think that it is safe enough to have something around 5000US$ available if immediate repairs or component replacements become necessary. If that grows to 10.000-15.000 over the next years, you should be safe even if a light-engine fails. At least the good thing about the typical DCI installation is that, while you may have spent 60.000-80.000 for the initial installation, you will never be forced to buy everything from scratch, you only need to replace or upgrade modules. A light-engine is the most expensive single item, but even they don't fail completely typically, but if at all, develop gradual defects which at some point in time force you towards a repair/replacement. Another aspect is wether you or someone is making a living from this operation. If a defect brings your screen down and there is no money to get it up again in short time, is there a lease to be paid, could this become the end of the operation, employments, family income, etc.? It's good to think about a budgetary strategy, but I wouldn't be too concerned. So far, the spectrum of DCI gear has proven to be small and mostly stable, and with a Barco and ShowVault, I don't see typical failure tendencies. The Barco is long out of warranty (although you should probably look up the papers, who knows which deals have been made back then). You'd better follow the bulb warranty/exchange schedules thoroughly. Having an out of warranty bulb explode in the typical xenon machine is plain stupid. I would add all these things to a maintenance schedule. Do you have access to the Barco and ShowVault maintenance/service manual documents? Is there a certified cinema tech coming to your site occasionally? How large is your screen? - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-11-2019 07:44 AM                     Light engines are considerably higher than that, except for Christie. The Barco 4K ones are more like double the estimate you provide.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 03-12-2019 02:56 PM                     Unfortunately, yes. The Barco light engines tend to be about the most expensive and the 4K light engines are no joke. That's why I keep the Barco in our screening room under warranty. quote: Brandon Belote I wasn't here at the time of purchase so I'm not sure what the warranty is on the Barco. If it outlives its warranty, is there any downside to keeping it? The standard warranty has already expired quite a while ago. There is, although, the possibility for an extended warranty program. This can be paid per year. In some cases, it's still possible to get a projector that's currently not covered by such a program into the program, but often you need to pay a "penalty" in order to do so. There is no reason to stop using a machine, once it drops out of warranty, if it is still performing like it should. A device not covered by warranty simply increases your risk to exposure of additional cost due to potential repairs on this device. The risk simply increases with age, so you should be more prepared to take a hit when your equipment is nearing the end of the economic life. The economic life per product may vary quite a bit. Bit like I said, for DCI equipment in general, we roughly keep it at 10 years across the board. For projectors, you may realistically expect anything between 10 and 15 years, while servers may be due earlier. Those numbers are an indicator only, with proper maintenance, which includes battery swaps, coolant, filter and the occasional fan swap and for servers also the hard disk or SSD swaps. Now, with the now upcoming laser and laser phosphor projectors, the expected life of 10 to 15 years per projector may not be achievable. The lower-end LP projectors already have a manufacturer based expected life of the light engine that gets you just close to 7 to 10 years for normal cinema operations.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 03-12-2019 06:14 PM                        What makes a significant difference in Brandon's case is that he has early Series 2 equipment, not late Series 1 equipment. The manufacturers are all still actively supporting all of it with spares availability. OK, a light engine isn't cheap (and if it does crap out, replacing it with a lower hours used projector for around the same price as a new or refurbed light engine might make more sense), but at least you know that replacing it is an option. If we were looking at an installation consisting of a DP100, a DSS100/DSP100, and a CP650 (with the AES input card), we would be having a very different conversation (one that would likely be focusing on some very serious fundraising). Last week I replaced six screens that were so equipped with DP2K-10Ses, IMS2000s and CP750s, which the owner had been planning to do, in order to prevent the risk of a screen going down with no quick or easy way of getting it back up again.  |  IP: Logged Brandon Belote Film Handler Posts: 8 From: Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States Registered: Jun 2015 posted 03-12-2019 08:49 PM                        Thanks again for everyone’s input. Screen is 22-feet wide. It’s about a 1.80:1 aspect (not sure who configured it but basically framed for flat). I confirmed Barco warranty is expired. I don't run the lamp past warranty life because I know the risk of explosion. We are part of a contemporary art center with five floors of art galleries. I end up managing a handful of their projectors too and I’ve seen those bulbs pop. Anyway, I wanted to confirm there's not a risk for running Barco DP2K long past its warranty. Sounds like it is safe but we’ll need to be ready to dish out for failing parts. Good point on the maintenance schedule and changing all the batteries. I believe I changed the IMB battery in 2017, so I'll probably change the ICP battery soon and make sure to change them together next time. I'm familiar with the ICP but not so much the server mainboard. I have a service manual for IMB that explains battery procedures. But I don’t have info on the ShowVault fans or hard drives, ICP battery, nor ‘CMOS’ battery. Are there any good resources available online–including service manuals or instructional videos? I perform most of the regular service on ShowVault and Barco. That includes yearly maintenance program on the ShowVault and Maintenance Types A and B on Barco. I've done the last couple lamp changes and a lot of troubleshooting. I think we had the CCB malfunction where it fails when connected to DVI or Ethernet, IMB was going out of color spec after switching to HDMI input, another audio processor involved in our theater went down and I had to rewire everything to save showtime, etc. etc. I’ve also had to get into the programming side of things between Barco, Doremi, CP750 and our lighting system. Since we’re an indie theater, we try to be pretty flexible. So whereas most of you with multiplex experience keep sixteen screens rolling consistently day-to-day, using automation, we run a variety of content and I train projectionists to control things by hand–to do as much as we can with one screen. Short film showcases, festivals, premieres, partnered film series, rentals, live scores, etc. We used to run alternative content regularly, like Blu Ray and Quicktime ProRes files. Now I mostly transfer that content to DCP, and DCP creation is becoming a more and more regular part of my responsibility here. Filmmakers are finding out and coming to me for premieres, festival screenings, Oscar reviews, etc. All this stuff comes with some extra technology to manage and I’m stretched pretty far between hardware, software, programming, exhibition and content creation. Mixing in the gallery assistance and demands of a university, it’s a little like the Wild West. We do have a technician come out once a year or so, usually for calibrations and deeper cleaning. I’ve been asking him a lot of these questions too but figured I would open it up to a range of experienced techs out there. I may ask for some guidance on battery changes–he may have checked them last time he was here too. Additionally, if I had to change the hard drives and fans for the ShowVault, would I be able to shop on the market for replacement items or are they proprietary/specific to ShowVault? From what I've seen, the HDs look like SATA drives in a swappable enclosure, much like the CRU drives.  |  IP: Logged

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