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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Gemini Man - HFR Test (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Gemini Man - HFR Test
Frank Cox
Film God

Posts: 2184
From: Melville Saskatchewan Canada
Registered: Apr 2011


 - posted 03-07-2019 04:39 PM      Profile for Frank Cox   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Cox   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
After all the hooraw about Alita Battle Angel, it looks like Paramount is getting onto the "test your theatre" bandwagon too.

I just got an email saying that they want everyone to test if they can run 60fps in 2D and 3D, and the instructions require setting up a new channel on your projector and several other steps that might be easy for a tech to do but are non-trivial for someone like me to attempt.

Their list of compatible equipment is this:

60 fps 3D-capable equipment
Sony: 200-300 series models require a HFR license.

60 fps 3D- and 120 fps 2D-capable equipment
Barco: All DLP series 2 projectors with an integrated media block.
NEC: All DLP series 2 projectors with an integrated media block.
Christie: All DLP series 2 projectors with an integrated media block and a HFR license

I have a Christie 2210 and as far as I know I don't have a HFR license (or do I?)

I'm thinking that it's not worth jumping through all of these hoops if my equipment can't do it anyway so my question for you folks is, can my equipment do it? If it can't then there's no point in attempting the rest of this stuff.

My server is currently a GDC SA2001A but I'm planning to change that out for a new model within the next few months.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 03-07-2019 04:56 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This GDC server is pretty old and won't do HFR, by the connection method alone (twin HD-SDI). The paramount letter says: 'DLP series 1 projectors and series 2 projectors without an IMB are not HFR capable.' You don't have an IMB.

Prior to the first Hobbit release, Christie announced their Previsto HFR capability, I think that upgrade is free, it is part of regular projector software upgrades.

The last attempt with HFR was 'Billy Lynns long halftime walk' (also by Ang Lee), and Sony pulled the plug on the HFR versions just a few days prior to release. At the time, they also sent out test clips and procedures to exhibitors.

Let's see what happens with 'Gemini Man'. I yet have to see an HFR movie that makes me say 'Wow!".

For the time being, there will always be 24/48fps versions of these DCPs as well, as the letter says: 'Note: There will be a 24 fps version available for those unable to present HFR'. So...

- Carsten

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 03-07-2019 05:01 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Billy Lynn is now out on 4K 60fps BD, so if you want something to test with, you could always buy that, rip it (if you have a 4K capable BD drive in your PC), and make, say, a 5-minute, seriously high bitrate DCP clip to test with.

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Carsten Kurz
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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 03-07-2019 05:08 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are quite a few HFR test clips floating around.
However, they don't answer the issues of aesthetic reception. As all HFR releases so far, Billy Lynn centered on 3D, and that UHD-BD is not 3D, as UHD doesn't cover 3D-HFR.

- Carsten

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Frank Cox
Film God

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From: Melville Saskatchewan Canada
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 - posted 03-07-2019 05:43 PM      Profile for Frank Cox   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Cox   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Carsten Kurz
'DLP series 1 projectors and series 2 projectors without an IMB are not HFR capable.' You don't have an IMB.
Okey dokey, that answers my question and I don't have to bother with doing this test regime that they sent out. I'll just check off NO on their form and email it back in.

Thanks! That saves me a fair bit of time and figuring out. [Smile]

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Justin Hamaker
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From: Lakeport, CA USA
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 - posted 03-07-2019 06:40 PM      Profile for Justin Hamaker   Author's Homepage   Email Justin Hamaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We could play it at our drive-in, but all 5 screen at our cinema are non-IMB servers.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-07-2019 06:57 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yay for HD-SDI!!! None of that awful HFR awfulness. [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

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Nguyen Jack
Film Handler

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From: Singapore
Registered: Mar 2013


 - posted 03-07-2019 09:04 PM      Profile for Nguyen Jack   Email Nguyen Jack   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
About HFR

With server Barco ICMP, Doremi IMB, and Christie IMB S3 can playing HFR.
With Christie IMB-S2, GDC need purchase license HFR and it's not fee

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 03-07-2019 09:29 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Brad Miller
Yay for HD-SDI!!! None of that awful HFR awfulness.
Yup ... Tom Cruise would be happy.

Although what would make him really happy would be if you took an in-front-of-the-lens shutter from a circa 1920s Motiograph, mounted it on an anamorph or 3-D mover in front of a digital projector, and synced it via GPIO to give DCPs that authentic, film motion look.

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Brad Miller
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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
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 - posted 03-07-2019 11:35 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Wouldn't it just be easier to project on real film?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 03-08-2019 05:59 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not all DCPs are the same and HFR is still in the wild-west.

For instance, for Billy Lynn, Dolby's DSS servers could:

DSS200/CAT862 could, if carefully configured, run 2D/60fps
DSS2x0/CAT745 run 2D/2K/60 or 3D/2K/60 (could not run 2D/2K/120)

For Gemini Man, no DSS line server can, at present, handle any of the HFR in 2D or 3D. If there can be a software fix for a CAT745 system to handle this variant of 2K/60 3D, then it might be able to work.

Mind you, I've set up CAT745 systems to run 2K/60/3D on CAT745s. It isn't that it can't handle that format but there is something about the bandwidth on this one (Gemini Man) that makes it choke after 3-seconds.

So just when was HFR 3D embraced so much in the past that people still give this guy money to make more? Why must the industry play to his experiments? It's the movie first, not the tech.

My guess is, the more modern your IMB/IMS is, the greater the likelihood that it will handle this latest "experiment." (i.e. IMS3000, ICMP, SX4000, IMB-S3 and possibly the SR1000 but who knows how much effort was put into the HFR 3D crap on the SR1000, at this stage...I'd think they were worked hard to just get it out and move towards stability for the other 99.9999999% of the movies).

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 03-08-2019 08:02 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
It isn't that it can't handle that format but there is something about the bandwidth on this one (Gemini Man) that makes it choke after 3-seconds.
So the issue is the bitrate required by HFR combined with 3-D and/or HDR.

I believe that either the DCI spec or some other applicable standard (SMPTE or ISDCF?) specifies a maximum bitrate of 250 MBPS; but presumably this assumes that the most bandwidth greedy format that will ever be used is 4K, 2-D, DCI XYZ at 24fps. If you're going to use something that would benefit from going over that, e.g. 4K at above 24fps, and/or with 3-D or HDR (say, Rec. 2020), then you're going above the bitrate that a DCP server has to support.

The manuals for both the Alchemy and the IMS2000 claim that they can handle up to 500 MBPS. When I get a moment, I'm going to make a DCP clip of a few minutes in 4K/60 at 500, and the next time I have access to one of the IMSes to experiment with, ingest it and play it and see what happens. But an old school server would struggle to cope with that bandwidth, probably. And HD-SDI media blocks are generally unsafe above around 200.

quote: Brad Miller
Wouldn't it just be easier to project on real film?
Probably not, given the difficulty of getting rid of prints and the fact that most theaters have ripped out their film projectors. My post was meant as a joke, but I've sometimes thought that it would be an interesting experiment to do: put a rotary, two-blade shutter, of the sort that was mounted in front of the lens on many film projectors until around the mid 1920s (when larger lamps started causing nitrate fires in serious numbers, so designers moved the shutter to a housing between the film path and the lamphouse, to reduce heat both by airflow - the shutter doubled as a cooling fan - and not having the film exposed to the lamp continuously) in front of a d-cinema projector, and synchronize its rotation via GPIO pulses as a 3-D filter wheel would be, to simulate a film projector flicker.

It would then be fun to do a back-and-forth comparison between that projector and a 35mm one playing the same content, and ask the audience which they believe is film and which is digital. In order to stand any chance of the result being meaningful, the film would have to be an absolutely spotless print, and possibly the odd spec of digital dirt added to the DCP; and the color calibration of the digital projector carefully set up to match that of the 35mm. But with all that done and then doing two sets of tests, one with the shutter operating in front of the digital projector and one not, I'd be interested to see if the audience responses were substantially above statistical error territory one way or the other.

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Martin McCaffery
Film God

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From: Montgomery, AL
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 - posted 03-08-2019 08:11 AM      Profile for Martin McCaffery   Author's Homepage   Email Martin McCaffery   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wouldn't it be easier to just program the flicker into the DCP?
Maybe as an added bonus, minor changes in the light quality every 20 or so minutes to simulate change overs. [Wink]

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Frank Cox
Film God

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From: Melville Saskatchewan Canada
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 - posted 03-08-2019 11:07 AM      Profile for Frank Cox   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Cox   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Shades of Grindhouse...

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 03-08-2019 11:49 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The current inofficial spec for HFR is max 450MBit/s. Some mediablocks can go substantially higher, but the Doremi IMB, as the IMB with the most installs, is limited to 450MBit/s.

The tech bulletins issued for Billy Lynns Long Halftime Walk claimed that all HFR DCP versions were done at 250MBit/s only - even those at 120fps.

I don't know if the Gemini Man test footage also prototypes the intended datarate.

I guess the 250MBit/s limit was targeted at systems that are limited to 250MBit/s per eye, but can still show 60fps in 2D (as CAT 862 or Doremi Dolphin boards).

Note, choking will not only occur due to high bitrates. Some test releases of DCP-o-matic used an OPENJPEG optimization that changed only 2 'irrelevant' bytes in a J2K frame to zero, and that made CAT 862 and 745 choke...

- Carsten

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