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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Barco alchemy ICMP server or Dolby IMS3000? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Barco alchemy ICMP server or Dolby IMS3000?
Thomas Vlachogiannis
Film Handler

Posts: 9
From: Veria, Macedonia, Greece
Registered: Sep 2014


 - posted 02-06-2019 02:14 PM      Profile for Thomas Vlachogiannis   Email Thomas Vlachogiannis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear all in the following days I have to order one digital cinema server and one dolby cp750.
Probably if buying Dolby IMS3000 worths more, because combines both (digital cinema server, and audio processor)?
(I have already one barco alchemy ICMP in my second screen, and i plan to connect them both in case of buying second alchemy ICMP )
I don’t know the pros and the cons for each occasion. Could you please help me?

As I have already known, in case I purchase Dolby IMS3000 I need to connect them only with digital network amplifiers (with AES)?

Any economical idea for digital network amplifier?

I don’t know for sure, that for dolby IMS3000, there is a need for extra equipment in case someone needs to connect it with external source, like blueray-laptop-etc.?

Thanks
Thomas

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7159
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 02-06-2019 05:09 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I take it that you're aware that a Barco Alchemy can only be used in a Barco projector? If the projector for which this IMS is to be used with isn't a Barco, the Alchemy isn't an option for you.

The IMS3000 is marketed as an IMS and an audio processor built into one unit, but its audio processing side has limitations. There are no analog outputs, only AES, so at the very least you'd need an external DAC between it and the power amps. Also, the only input sources it has besides DCP playback are live streaming via IP, HDMI and HD-SDI. It does have Atmos processing built in.

If you need to do alternative content but not Atmos, an IMS2000 (or its equivalent from another manufacturer) plus a full featured audio processor (e.g. CP750) might make more sense for you.

If I were in your shoes, I would not just be looking at the features of the machine itself. The purchase price, warranty arrangements (how long do you get when you buy it? Parts only, or parts and labor? How much to renew at the end of the initial term? If you choose not to renew, will they offer a one-time repair service, and/or sell parts to you directly?), the reputation of your local dealership, integration with your existing system (the fact that you already have an Alchemy could be significant) and factors like that are also worth considering.

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Marin Zorica
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From: Biograd na Moru, Croatia
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 - posted 02-06-2019 05:35 PM      Profile for Marin Zorica   Email Marin Zorica   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you have Barco than going with ICMP and dolby processor is ok, specialy if you have another allready so you can share content between them etc, it will work best if two are same.....because ICMP for somewhat reason sometimes has issues with connecting some server or nas for content exchange over ftp......

As for IMS3000 audio part, there are quite available power amplifier with aes input, but in same range they are something like 30% more expencive because of that, mostly as by default all aes input capable amplifiers have dsp built it.....which can be pros if you driving speakers in bi or three amp. Also, if you want to play some non sync music or so, also count on A/D as IMS has aes in&out only........but you can use doremi AUD2A, sonifex D/A or something else.....

So you just to put some combinations on papier, and see which one is most economic,.....

If it would be my job, Barco projector, plus limited budget i would chose ICMP.
If i would have extra money for better amps with aes input, some external mixer with aes input for non sync to IMS, etc.....i would go with IMS to be more compact.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12342
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-07-2019 07:10 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Note, the IMS3000 is Atmos capable but will only render to 7.1, if the content so allows (I'm not aware of any, but others will know better than I). With a license (same one as for the CP850), it can do full-Atmos.

It can output AES3 (16-channels) or AES67 (many channels, including Atmos). As for alternative content, it does have an HDMI 2.0 input, which can handle the image and audio, providing it is plain jane LPCM or Dolby audio (no DTS, which eliminates most Blu-rays).

Dolby does have their Multichannel amplifier which could make an IMS3000/MCA a easy solution...single Ethernet cable to the amp and you're done (with wiring the IMS to the amps).

Has your experience with the iCMP been less than good? I'm curious as to why you are considering something different since you have the ICMP already. Note, for content transfers, most servers can transfer media amongst themselves via FTP and the ICMP to ICMP or to IMS3000 should be no exception.

However, with the ICMP, one thing you get is that it behaves as part of the projector. So merely pressing a preset button can switch inputs to things like the HDMI, SDI or DCP without also having to switch the server.

The ICMP seems like it is still a work in progress with odd quirks and best operated via the web-server. It refuses to play DCPs unless the projector is already in a DCP preset (e.g. Scope or Flat) except for its own "special" black and you have to have a cue in there to make the projector switch inputs BEFORE it hits real DCP content. The IMS3000 doesn't have such a silly restriction...but if the IMS3000 is showing that "A Star is Born" on its Cinelister control screen (maybe it was what played last show), if you hit play, you have no idea of what show will play, you have to first switch to the Editor screen to see what is selected. The IMS3000 is also a web-interface.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 02-07-2019 07:24 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
As for alternative content, it does have an HDMI 2.0 input, which can handle the image and audio, providing it is plain jane LPCM or Dolby audio (no DTS, which eliminates most Blu-rays).
Many if not most DVD/BD players can be configured to convert everything to uncompressed LPCM and output that, and only that. One gotcha with doing this is that if the connection from the player to the processor is optical or co-axial, the bandwidth of these cables limits you to two channels; but HDMI can cope with eight channels of LPCM.

However, configuring the player is something you need to remember to do at the installation stage.

Off the top of my head, the only cinema audio audio processor I can think of that can decode both consumer Dolby and DTS (as is typically found on DVDs and BDs) is the AP20/25, unless there are any QSC options that can (I've never had cause to try). The CP750/850, some if not all USL models and the Trinnov can decode Dolby, but AFAIK, not DTS.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12342
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-07-2019 07:38 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
QSC's DCIO-H handles Dolby, DTS and, of course, LPCM. Dolby tops out at Dolby Digital Plus but DTS goes to DTS-HD.

The QSC/USL JSD60/100 can do Dolby and DTS

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 02-07-2019 07:58 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The JSD-100 in our screening room's booth cannot do DTS (at least, not as output by optical from our Oppo). When the output is set to bitstream, it'll decode Dolby, but if DTS output is selected on a disc that has it, the result is silence.

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Dave Macaulay
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From: Toronto, Canada
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 - posted 02-07-2019 08:52 AM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Dolby CP850 adds Tru-HD decoding. But still no DTS (hardly a surprise), and it's not a cheap processor. Most if not all Blu-Ray discs have DTS as default digital audio plus 2 channel digital (usually with matrix encoding), Dolby Digital or Tru-HD and any other choices are options for the disc producer.

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Harold Hallikainen
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From: Denver, CO, USA
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 - posted 02-07-2019 09:03 AM      Profile for Harold Hallikainen   Author's Homepage   Email Harold Hallikainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As Steve points out, the JSD-60 can do Dolby and DTS decoding. The JSD-100 only does Dolby. We never got a DTS license for the JSD-100.

Harold

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12342
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-07-2019 10:07 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Using the same DI-84 board? I thought the idea of the DI-84 being used on the various JSD series was to avoid having to design and re-license everything. What a serious gaffe there.

I wonder what the CMS5000 decodes. It will be able to decode up to 64-channels of DTS-X and claims Dolby Digital Plus on "bitstream" but no mention of DTS for bitstream.

Honestly, if the processors choose to decode just one or the other, I don't have time to mess with them; I don't need caveats to what a customer can play or how a device has to be set up to magically work. We're in the movie business...people are going to play movies from consumer grade sources for the foreseeable future. You need to support both DTS and Dolby (I I didn't do it). The CP850 has a black eye from the combination of lack of analog multi-channel inputs as well as lack of DTS decoding. Datasat got it right by supporting both and QSC got it right on the DCIO-H. It would appear that on the JSD60 it was thought out but on the JSD100...the more deluxe one (though earlier), it never got the DTS software (same board)?

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Carsten Kurz
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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 02-07-2019 06:15 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While I am all for Datasat, I understand it's not always possible to employ one.
So I think the DTS issue is best solved by a Bluray player that will decode all formats to discrete PCM multichannel. However, that only works through HDMI, which means, the processor also needs to offer an HDMI input for audio. So, back at Datasat (or QSC).
However, some IMS/IMB will decode multichannel PCM on their HDMI input and pass through to it's AES/EBU output. A couple of sites I work on use that scheme with their ICMPs.

I know a few older Bluray players that are actually able to transcode Dolby AC3 to dts and vice versa (S/P-DIF/TOSLINK). These could solve some issues, but, this doesn't work for the TrueHD/Masteraudio varieties. And it's a pretty rare feature as well.

- Carsten

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12342
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-07-2019 07:58 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem with the ICMP (and I'm sure other HDMI on the IMB/IMS is that DCPs put BSl and BSr on channels 11/12 and consumer puts them on 7//8). That gets you into channel mapping, which, sooner or later, gets you some dude talking out of the rear speakers.

I want the cinema people to treat HDMI for what it is...consumer and cater to it that way. Handle the channel assignments and level differences (cinema drops the surrounds by 3dB due to a legacy that no longer applies, while consumer does not) and deal with the DTS and Dolby decoding, even if it isn't the top-flight version of either...make it so it JUST WORKS.

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 02-08-2019 10:13 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Which is why the choice of BD player (or other alternative content playout device, e.g. Direct TV box or whatever) is important in a system that has to play both DCI and alternative content reliably, and with as little technical knowledge as possible required from the end user.

Ideally, a player is needed that enables the installer to force the HDMI output to uncompressed LPCM, and prevent the operator from accidentally changing it back to a compressed, proprietary format, most likely by using the GUI menus on the disc itself. These vary: on some, if you select LPCM output in the setup, it will output LPCM until such time as you switch to a compressed format using a disc's menu. On others, it will stay on LPCM until the system setup is changed again.

One of the many reasons why Oppos were so popular with installers who had to integrate BD/DVD playback capability with a DCI setup is because the force to LPCM option for the HDMI audio output was a set-and-forget idiotproofing measure. On many cheaper consumer players, it isn't, and I've come across some on which this setting won't even survive a cold reboot of the player.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12342
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-08-2019 11:02 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Choosing a BD player is a losing battle. They are going to be short lived, like all consumer pieces. So if you find one you like, next year it could be gone. It also doesn't address the channel location issue between consumer and cinema.

Put the responsibility where it belongs, on the cinema equipment and then you don't have to be as fussy on the consumer equipment end.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7159
From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 02-08-2019 11:42 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with you in principle, but in practice that means that either you have to use an external decoder or DAC, or that your choice of cinema audio processor is limited to the AP20/25 or Q-Sys with a DCIO-H, if it is desired that any widely used consumer compressed HDMI audio format should play through a cinema system without the end user ever needing to make any configuration changes, either to the player or the audio processor.

While the need to design and install audio systems that can handle both cinema and consumer digital audio formats, and be operated by an end user with only consumer level technical knowledge, is a niche market, it is a big enough one (for us, at any rate) that we need to worry about it.

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