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Author Topic: What tech to install in a new cinema in 2019?
Perry Mulder
Film Handler

Posts: 6
From: Sint Jansteen, Zeeland, Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted 10-05-2018 03:39 PM      Profile for Perry Mulder   Author's Homepage   Email Perry Mulder   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and would love get your input on the following:

We are opening a new cinema in The Netherlands june 2019. It's a small cinema. We are trying to figure out what projector, server and soundsystem would fit. It's a old cinema that has been closed for 10 years and we are reviving it. All the tech will be replaced. There will be 4 rooms to screen the films.

The room specs:

Room 1: 9.85x14.00=140m2 (140 seats)
Room 2: 11.00x17.70=194.7m2 (160 seats)
Room 3: 10.25x11.90=122m2 (90 seats)
Room 4: 8.80x12.30=108m2 (50 seats)

Apart from the cinema,there will also be 4 lane bowling, a restaurant and Cinema room 2 will have a small stage (10m long x 5m deep) for use of standup comedy, small music concerts and live theater plays.

So what is needed in 2019?:
- 2k or native 4k projectors? Lamp or laser? What brand?
- 3D= dead or alive? Worth investment? All 4 rooms or just 1?
- Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D? DTS?
- What speakersystem? Dolby server? Or link the whole complex via Q-sys platform? That also plays the music in restaurant, bowling and cinema rooms + theater?
-screen, what screen would you suggest and what to avoid?

Anthing else I should take into account?
By the way, the projectors need to be DCP compliant. Films will be blockbuster and arthouse.

Looking forward to your input [thumbsup]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Bountiful, Utah
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 - posted 10-05-2018 03:43 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[Smile]

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Justin Hamaker
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From: Lakeport, CA USA
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 - posted 10-05-2018 07:02 PM      Profile for Justin Hamaker   Author's Homepage   Email Justin Hamaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With regard to 3D, if you are going to install 3D I would recommend doing it in at least 2 auditoriums - one large and one small.

While demand for 3D has drastically dropped in recent years, if you are going to have it you want the flexibility of being able to move around to meet demand. Depending on the 3D system you use, you will most likely need to install a new screen. If you have any screens that need to be replaced you should take this into consideration when ordering replacements.

For your auditorium with a stage, you probably want to include systems with expanded possibilities for lighting and sound. You should look at ideas for connecting laptops and presentation technology to your projector from the stage, as this will expand your ability to host meetings and other non-movie events. This might mean running cables from the stage to the projection room, or finding wireless systems to do the same job.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12133
From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 10-06-2018 04:39 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In truth, few if anyone here can answer those questions. You really need to know your market and what THEY will want to pay for. Like all businesses, it comes down to money and that will or should guide you on what makes sense for your particular complex, in your particular location.

Xenon/Laser is more complicated (nobody is going to come out because you use Laser versus Xenon...patrons really are not that technical and even those that are, are statistically insignificant. Again, the money should dictate the technology you use. What does it cost you to put in, what does it cost you to keep, use the system that will yield the most profits for the life of the equipment. The answer today may not be the same answer next year.

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 10-06-2018 04:58 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Like Steve says. I'd only offer the following, general thoughts.

1. Those rooms don't seem big enough to me for the difference between 2K and 4K to be visible to anyone who isn't sitting in the front couple of rows.

2. Steve has opined in past threads that below the illumination level equivalent to a 4kW xenon arc bulb, RGB laser does not make economic sense. There will be specific issues in your market to consider, but I would suggest doing the math. Over the total number of years that you're planning for your projectors to be in service, would the additional cost of laser cover the cost of bulbs and electricity over the same time period if you went for xenon?

3. You might like to think about equipping Room 2 above and beyond plain vanilla digital cinema, if you feel that your market might justify it, e.g. by installing HDMI hookup facilities at the stage (as Justin has suggested), alternative content facilities, 3-D, and maybe 35mm.

4. One Q-Sys design for the whole place may well make economic sense, though I'd strongly suggest a double redundant core and Q-Lan. If you don't go for redundancy, then if your core or a Q-Lan switch goes out, the whole complex is buggered. With individual audio processors in each screen, one of them failing would only take out that one screen.

Q-Sys would also make it a bit easier to upgrade one of the houses to Atmos at a later date, though the main expense of that would be the power amps, speakers, and wiring runs. You may wish to consider putting the wiring runs from ceiling to booth in now, especially if you're gutting the rooms totally, and therefore doing so would add relatively little to the cost at this stage in the game.

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Tom Bert
Film Handler

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From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010


 - posted 10-08-2018 02:14 AM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Perry, you are welcome to visit our Barco HQ in Kortrijk, Belgium (<1hr drive for you) to discuss this topic in person and see some demos of lamp and laser projectors.

Barco has projector, media server and audio server solutions for cinema.

Let me know if this interests you

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Perry Mulder
Film Handler

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From: Sint Jansteen, Zeeland, Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted 10-08-2018 07:32 AM      Profile for Perry Mulder   Author's Homepage   Email Perry Mulder   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks guys for the input so far! I have been reading into a lot of the threads here and it has been so informative.
So a little update on my findings.

3D:

in 2018 there where/are 27 titels, in 2019 there are 14 titles known to support 3D and in 2020 12 titles. I'm sure other titles will add to the list so for the upcoming 2 years 3D still has it's place in the cinema. The titles that are on that list are all titles that would do well for our visitors. Justin gave the adviced doing it in at least 2 auditoriums - one large and one small. So For now that will translate into Room 1 (150 seats) and room 4 (50 seats). All 4 rooms need a new screen so I will have to see what screen would be the best fit for 3D.

Speakersystem:

I have been reading many good thing about QSC speakers and the price of these speakers and woofers are fair for what they offer. So will probably go that route. I will have to see wich type of speaker, that would differ per roomsize I asume. Any suggestions there?

Auro 3D and Dolby Atmos:

Since Galaxystudios is very closeby I called them to see what Auro 3D could mean for us. I read that with a Auro 3D installation it can also support Dolby Atmos and DTS-X? This might not be for every room, but maybe room 1 to compliment 3D movies as well.

Server and cinema processor:

We made a appointment with CinemaNext in the Netherlands, we will go there tomorrow. I will ask to see what the possibilities are with a Q-sys platform. I read good thing about the Datasat25, but not sure that will work with Q-sys, it does work with Auro 3D since it is 16 channel. For Q-sys it would probably make more sence to go with the USL JSD-100?

Projector:

If Auro 3D would be something we could invest in I guess it would make sence to go with Barco:-) So Tom Bert, I will be in contact with you. I talked to Mark from Galaxystudios and he will probably set something up in the near future.

Laser projector and 2k vs 4k:

Laser is probably not gonna be worth investing in as prices still are pretty steep. And as Leo Enticknap mentioned, the rooms are probably not big enough for 4k to really make a difference all that much apart from the people in the first 2 rows. So for now I have my eyes on:

Barco DP2K-6E, Barco DP2K-8, Barco DP2K-10s or Barco DP2K-12C.

I did read here on the forum about a lack of contrast with the DP2K-8 and 10s, but that could probably be improved with the right screen. So Tom, looking forward to that demo!

Screen:

I have not had much time to look into this yet, but maybe the following?:

For 3D Harkness Screen Spectral 240 3D Perf.
For 2D Harkness Screen Matt Mini Perf.

So what do you guys/Ladies think? Am I on the right track?

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 10-08-2018 08:35 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of the projectors you mention, my personal preference would be for the C series, because (with the exception of the B series, IMHO), they are the easiest to maintain. That having been said, because you are so close to Barco's global HQ, you won't have any problem whatsoever finding a Barco certified tech when you need one.

If you went for Q-Sys, you wouldn't need any other audio processors at all, except for 35mm analog and Atmos decoding if you wanted either of those. The 16 channels of AES audio output (of which you would only need 10, assuming 7.1 plus HI and VI) from each of the IMBs or IMSes would just go straight into the Q-Sys core, and all signal processing and tuning would happen in the Q-Sys design. A single (but with a redundant backup) Core 510 (the cinema version) would be able to handle all the channels needed for a 4-plex, assuming no Atmos. If you did put Atmos in one or more screens, you'd likely need a bigger core.

I like the AP20/AP25, too, and if you were to decide to equip one screen with 35mm, that would be something to look at seriously, because you can add the optional H.338 film preamp card (if they still make it). The other film option would be a used CP650 or below. But if you were to go for Q-Sys and are not equipping any of the screens for film, you wouldn't need it.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Bountiful, Utah
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 - posted 10-08-2018 09:10 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nah, no Q-Sys in this place, it couldn't see it being economically feasible in rooms this small. A separate JSD-100 in each room for reliability and best sound quality... UNlike ther CP-750 the JSD-100 is practically bulletproof, I have yet to ever have one fail! As an upgrade the Trinnov Ovation processors could be used. QSC screen speakers such as the SC-2150 could be utilized in these small rooms to advantage. I placed quite a few 2150's in small rooms during digital conversions and they sound really nice.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 10-08-2018 09:38 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For four screens of 7.1? The CORE 110 can handle that (64 streams/128 channels in/out...you'd only be up to 28 channels in/out). DCIO-H at each screen and you have everything you need...a far, far better solution than the JSD100...much more capable and flexible. I'd use a redundant core only multiplex situation (and dual networks). With QSYS (or the DPM line) you get intrinsic correction on QSC speakers so you'd be practically tuned, right out of the box.

Now, if you are looking for plug-n-play solutions (less flexibility but pretty much 95% of what most cinemas need) then there are several solutions like the QSC DPM, DCP line as well as more traditional cinema processors with conventional wiring like the JSD60, JSD100, CP750, AP25, Ovation. There are monitor and crossover choices too for traditional systems though they, like the cinema processors, seem to be funneling towards QSC (CM-8E, DCM lines) now that they have USL under their umbrella.

To address Leo's film criteria, I'd add any suitable film processor to the QSYS system and be done with it. That is, take a CP65/DA20, CP500, JSD80, CP650...etc. and just call it up as a source. The use cycle of your film processor will be substantially different than the rest of the system; no need to overly convolve them.

QSC has also brought out the SC223 speaker that is essentially a purpose built SC323 but only for bi-amp systems and with an optimized midrange. The SC-2150 has too many compromises in the name of depth so unless you have no depth behind the screen, a full-size speaker is going to work better.

If Atmos is added, then each Atmos MUST use a separate core. Atmos sets its own clock based on the CP850 (or IMS3000) so you can't share it between screens.

Auro cannot handle DTS-X or Atmos. Though Atmos and DTS-X CAN be similar, they are not similar to Auro, which puts its stock in trade in "height" channels, something I've yet to find to be of any real value. Atmos and Auro are the only "holistic" solutions with nobody really steering the ship for DTS-X. From what I've heard, IF I were to invest in an immersive system, it would be Atmos. It is an end-to-end solution that continues to have home implications to ensure its long-term viability better than the others. However, it is not a cheap date. I'd price it out and then ask yourself, will installing it sell enough extra tickets (or be the means of viability) to justify the added expense.

All of the S2K projector have miserable contrast (not brand specific). You cannot fix contrast with screen gain. You can have not not look as bad but the contrast remains miserable...but by increasing screen gain, you also make the image illumination less uniform. Barco, on their Laser-Phosphor projectors have effectively increased contrast some over their xenon equivalents but not Earth shattering. From the Barco line, I like to start with the DP2K-12C. It is a VERY versatile projector with a lamp range from 850-watts up to 2200-watts.

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Perry Mulder
Film Handler

Posts: 6
From: Sint Jansteen, Zeeland, Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted 10-08-2018 01:08 PM      Profile for Perry Mulder   Author's Homepage   Email Perry Mulder   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the fast replay guys!

The more I read this, the more I think Q-sys would be the way to go for us. Mark, I'll note your comment too, we will indeed need to do some calculations after tomorrows meeting with CinemaNext.

So if I am correct, most of you suggest a Q-sys server with a redundant backup. Four screens with 7.1 indeed. So that would mean:

- 1x CORE 110f (primary)
- 1X CORE 110f (Back up core)
- 4x DCIO/DCIO-H (No need for a backup IO frame?)
- 2x DP2K-12C (room 1 and 2)
- 1x DP2K-10s (room 3)
- 1x DP2K-8s (room 4)
- 1x QSC CMS-5000 server? not sure how that integrates:-)

The soundsystem is still a little unclear to me. Maybe the 2 smaller rooms (3&4) could go with a "basic" 7.1 installation with suitable QSC speakers and woofer. There is enough room behnt the screens. about 50cm at least. Room 2 needs special attention due to the stage speakers, can't go with a standard cinema installation, so the q-sys platform would be very useful here as well. Room 1 is the one that needs to be our jewel, this will be the one to screen premiers.
So with that room it might be interesting to see what we can do with dolby atmos or Auro 3D in 13.1.
The way this work is still a little unclear to me, but since Galaxystudios is so close to from where we are based I guess it makes sence to at least meet with them to see what is possible with Auro 3D.

For now there are no plans to do anything with 35mm or 70mm filmprojectors, but I understand that if I would want that for a special event, it could be done so with a CP650 added to the mix, am I correct Leo? Or does q-sys rule out those possibilities?

Did I overlook anything? Possibly the amplifiers, but I've seen QSC has those as well, any recommandations there? And what about monitors?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 10-08-2018 02:58 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
The SC-2150 has too many compromises in the name of depth so unless you have no depth behind the screen, a full-size speaker is going to work better.
And that's exactly why I brought it up. I am assuming on a project like this that every square inch of space will be devoted to seating. Plus, the 2150 is not so much of a compromise as one might think it is.

If he relies on one Q-Sys for the entire complex he better have a back up one in place, at which point I think his budget is kind of blown up a bit.

Mark

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Marcel Birgelen
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 - posted 10-08-2018 03:51 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Q-Sys essentially "virtualizes" your sound into a "digital sound network", where your inputs and outputs are digitalized using an interface like the DCIO/DCIO-H, which is specifically made to match the I/O requirements of your average Digital Cinema booth.

The Q-Sys core is where the audio-routing/switching and processing (effects, equalization, etc.) is done. Since those Q-Sys cores are pretty powerful devices, you can easily process multiple screens and rooms, including hallways, foyer and other spaces with one Q-Sys core. That's also why you should consider a backup, because when your single Q-Sys core may drop out, your entire operation might become silent or worse.

What's not yet included into the overview is that Q-Sys doesn't live in thin air and needs a stable Gigabit Ethernet network as a backbone. So, you should also invest in the necessary Ethernet switching and wiring with sufficient ports for all your networking needs. Please notice that both projector and server/IMS combo also needs switching ports.

I would recommend a redundant ethernet switching setup, where you segment your network into VLANs, to segment it for specific functionalities.

quote:
- 4x DCIO/DCIO-H (No need for a backup IO frame?)
You'll be installing one of each for every screen. It's pretty hard to impossible to create a scenario in which you could make a DCIO/DCIO-H redundant, even if you install two per room. You could, if you want to factor in the expenses, invest in a cold-spare unit you could use as a drop-in replacement if one of them fails though.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 10-09-2018 06:25 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Please note, I'm NOT saying QSYS is the right/best solution for you...it CAN be and provides the most flexibility now and into the future. As for backups. The Core can (and should) be backed up with a redundant core (do you really want to go down on multiple screens) and the QLAN can be backed up (same reasons). QSYS provides for redundant cores and dual QLANs.

You can do something called "dynamic pairing" to allow for back up I/O and amps. That is, since all I/O (including amps) are configured items, without dynamic pairing, dropping another I/O device in doesn't replace what failed, it is seen as another device to be configured. With dynamic pairing, you can set it up such that if a like or more capable device is plugged in on the same port (Ethernet physical port), then the system will configure that new device to function as the previous device. Thus, you could have, for example a spare DCIO-H and a spare DPA8.8Q amp (or whatever amps you are using) on site and have a backup for any of those and upon failure, be swapped out as fast as you can plug them in.

The SC-2150 IS a compromise over a full-sized speaker...either you are deaf and blind or you are making things up. Blind in its specs and deaf in its sound. It isn't that it is bad but it is nowhere near what an SC-423 is in sound quality. In fact, I'd take most 2-way speakers over it.

BTW...servers are needed for each screen.

I think you'd be better served to go visit some functioning cinemas to see what they have done, perhaps go to a trade show or two to see what is out there than try to design a system here via committee.

Sound is a tricky one because there are parts of it governed by physics (rarely is smaller better), voodoo (why does one speaker sound better than another despite similar specs?), budget (we all have limits), space (how much room do you have behind the screen), what formats do you want/need to support and then outright personal preference (I like speaker A and you like speaker B...neither are right or wrong). I'll say that one of the portions above that isn't up for debate...the physics...sound will always behave its laws so that has to be in a successful design.

Same with projectors...to make decisions sight-unseen is to be uniformed.

With servers...look at the workflow your operation will have to go through with each. What are their reliability? From a showing the movie standpoint...they all work and will put up the same picture/sound but some have had 100% failure rates doing it, some just don't fit with the workflow of some cinemas as well as others and that will vary from company to company.

You really need to do some personal research beyond here to find what is right FOR YOU and YOUR BUSINESS.

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Tom Bert
Film Handler

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From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010


 - posted 10-09-2018 10:05 AM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Note that with the introduction of the new SMPTE standard ( SMPTE announcement), Auro3D and Auro11.1 have migrated to (the SMPTE-compliant) AuroMax: https://www.barco.com/en/product/apx-audio-processor

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