Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Samsung's "No Projector" Cinema Screen (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Samsung's "No Projector" Cinema Screen
Mark Ogden
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 804
From: Little Falls, N.J.
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-14-2017 07:05 PM      Profile for Mark Ogden   Email Mark Ogden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Article, from Engadget. " . . . might be too close to watching TV in public for some cinephiles . . ."

 -

So you just spent $120,000 on a 120-inch 4K HDR screen and think you've got the biggest, baddest TV around? Nope! Samsung has unveiled the Cinema LED Screen that's an epic 10.3 meters (33.8 feet, or 406 inches). It runs at full 4K (4,096 x 2,160) resolution, features HDR and peaks out at 146 fL of brighntess, "ten times greater than that offered by standard projector technologies," Samsung said in a news release.

The set, first teased in March this year, offers a "distortion-free" presentation with deep blacks, accurate whites and bright colors "at a nearly infinite contrast ratio," according to Samsung. While it didn't say so, the extra brightness could possibly improve 3D films, which normally look dim with projection systems due to the polarized glasses required.

To complement the image quality, Samsung worked with its JBL by Harman division on the sound tech. That system features speakers around the screen, proprietary audio processing tech, and "Sculpted Surround Sound" from JBL to provide more dramatic and faithful audio.
Samsung Electronics unveiled the model at the Lotte Cinema in Korea, saying it's the "first ever commercial Cinema LED Screen" it has installed. The average movie theater screen is around 50 feet, but the 33.8-foot Cinema Screen would be a good fit in smallish multiplex rooms.

Samsung says it adapts to a wider range of dark and ambient lighting situations, making it work well for corporate events, sports viewing and gaming competitions. For films, it would certainly offer a very different experience than a projector and might be too close to watching TV in public for some cinephiles.

Samsung is obviously one of the few companies out there, perhaps along with LG, that could even create such a giant LED screen. It was certified by the Digital Cinema Initiatives (DCI), meaning it can showcase films in theaters with unaltered color spectrum accuracy. As for the price, unless you've got an 80-foot yacht parked in the harbor, it's probably best not to ask.

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 7812
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-14-2017 07:18 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In what universe is the average movie screen fifty feet wide? Thirty feet is probably far more likely.

 |  IP: Logged

Stephan Shelley
Master Film Handler

Posts: 476
From: castro valley, CA, usa
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted 07-14-2017 08:34 PM      Profile for Stephan Shelley   Email Stephan Shelley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was just working on a Dunkirk 70mm install at a Century Theatre in Daley City CA and it has a 44 ft wide screen and it is not the XD screen either.

 |  IP: Logged

Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2441
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 07-15-2017 04:39 AM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How does that work with the pixel resolution? Are the panels custom-manufactured to provide a 1:1 mapping?
What I am saying is that the pixel pitch will change with the side of the screen. If those panels have a fixed resolution then you cannot end up exactly at 4096x2160 and they would be forced to rescale.

How do they handle the change in pixel pitch between flat (3996x2160) and scope (4096x1716)? It can't be possible, so I guess those screens have a much higher resolution and they then just rescale.

 |  IP: Logged

Pietro Clarici
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 124
From: Foligno (PG) Italy
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted 07-15-2017 10:39 AM      Profile for Pietro Clarici   Author's Homepage   Email Pietro Clarici   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At this point, I believe it's single size only.
96 cabinets arranged in a 10.3x5.4m array, each cabinet is 256x360 pixels. The pixel pitch is 2.5mm.

Since it's 4096x2160 on a 1.9:1 aspect ratio, Scope is letterboxed and Flat is pillarboxed with no scaling involved except the usual pixel quadrupling with 2K material.

 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10431
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 07-15-2017 11:28 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This "cinema screen" Samsung is showcasing is not exactly ground-breaking new technology. This is basically an LED-based "jumbotron" sign, just one with a fairly tight pixel pitch. Maybe Samsung is the first to try to sell such a product to install in traditional movie theaters.

Sony has its "CLEDIS" crystal LED technology. They have these "canvas" displays with pixel pitches down to 1.2mm. The LEDs themselves are almost microscopic to allow a lot of black in between each pixel.

Daktronics is the biggest American LED jumbotron manufacturer. They're mainly known for traditional outdoor LED signs and huge LED signs for sports stadiums. They're putting the finishing touches on the world's largest sports stadium LED sign, the enormous halo ring going into the Atlanta Falcons' new stadium. They have narrow pixel pitch UHD video displays in different sizes and pixel pitches, from 2.5mm down to 1.2mm

quote: Marco Giustini
How does that work with the pixel resolution? Are the panels custom-manufactured to provide a 1:1 mapping?
What I am saying is that the pixel pitch will change with the side of the screen. If those panels have a fixed resolution then you cannot end up exactly at 4096x2160 and they would be forced to rescale.

Just like any flat screen electronic display the content must be mapped to the display's pixels 1:1. The content will look its best when it's created exactly for the native resolution of the display. Scaling will almost always soften the image (unless you're doing something like an exact 4K down to 2K reduction with bilinear resampling).

Companies like Daktronics make a variety of different LED boards with many different pixel pitches for both indoor and outdoor use. They have the really tight 1.2mm, 1.9mm and 2.5mm SMD LED boards for UHD use. You can go 4mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm and 20mm. The driver boards are modular. So you can custom configure whatever size and pitch you need (and what your budget can handle, this stuff can get very expensive very quick).

I don't expect these Jumbotron style screens to take over movie theaters any time soon. Cost is one really big issue. How much is Samsung wanting for their cinema screen?

I think audio is just as big a problem, and probably a deal breaker for really large screens. Speakers above and below the screen only seem to work for modest sized auditoriums. It doesn't work well for giant sized screens.

As tiny as some of these LED clusters are being made I think it's possible to create a porous curtain-like LED system that can hang in front of stage speakers. But that would require a lot of design changes in how these boards are built. If you open up a LED sign you'll see all sorts of fans, ribbon cables and other stuff connected to each square tile of LEDs. Somehow the manufacturers have to change how the LED boards are connected so they don't require a big solid chunk of plastic and metal going into each tile of LEDs.

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6324
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-15-2017 01:24 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That could be done with flex circuits.

They are just a sheet of laminated multi-layer polyester (or something) with the circuit traces between the layers. They can even laminate flex circuits between sections of standard fiberglass/epoxy circuit board. With that and some low-profile snap connectors it would be possible to make flexible, perforated LED panels in almost any size you want.

The SMT machines where I work can handle panels from 3 inches square up to 18 or 24 inches.

Flex circuits are a pain in the ass to manufacture but flexible, giant screen LED displays with perforations are certainly within the realm of current manufacturing technology.

I can't tell you the details because of ITAR regulations but I can tell you that we make stuff like that on a pretty regular basis.

Some of those surface-mount LEDs are smaller than a grain of rice.

 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10431
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 07-15-2017 02:14 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's a good thing some of these LEDs are so tiny (the ones in Sony's CLEDIS system are about as thick as a strand of hair). The black between the LED pixels is very important for contrast and very dark black levels.

A flexible LED screen that allowed sound to pass through would still need to be modular for maintenance. It would be cost prohibitive to replace an entire screen just because one pixel got stuck or went dead. The components do wear out over time. It's a lot cheaper to replace one driver board. The manufacturers have been getting better at making these displays easier to maintain. They'll have to go farther with LED movie theater screens.

I'll be hanging out with some of Daktronics' people in 4 weeks at a regional sign convention at a casino resort near Joplin. I'll talk with them about some of this stuff.

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6324
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-15-2017 02:49 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Imagine a panel with a "picture frame" of standard fiberglass/epoxy, 1/2 inch wide around the four sides with low-pro snap connectors at the edges. The LEDs could be mounted on a sheet of flex circuit inside that frame. It could be a sheet of perforated PET laminate or it could be made of thin strips. (Like a woven pie crust.) There could be support/driver circuitry around the frames.

These panels could be, maybe, 6 inches square and they could snap together at the edges like Legos.

With today's technology, it is certainly possible to create something like this. You could make giant LED displays in virtually any size you want.

Some of the SMT components that I work with are the size of a small grain of rice or a large grain of sand. I keep a 10X photographer's loupe in my pocket in case I need to verify a component ID. I know that there are SMD LEDs as small as 1 mm X 2 mm. That includes the component case and everything. The elements inside are microscopic. I have no doubt that there are LEDs, as you say, as small as a human hair.

With the new technologies that are emerging, I have no doubt that it would be possible to manufacture LEDs directly onto a polyester flex circuit.

From what I know by experience and the things I read about, I believe that, in the next decade, it would be possible to manufacture a flexible LED cinema screen that could be rolled up, shipped and installed in a similar way to the way that traditional movie screens are done today.

 |  IP: Logged

Neil Brimelow
Film Handler

Posts: 4
From: Bay St. Louis, MS
Registered: May 2016


 - posted 07-16-2017 01:35 AM      Profile for Neil Brimelow   Author's Homepage   Email Neil Brimelow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm just curious if anyone has found out the price on this new Samsung Cinematic Abomination? [Smile] [puke]

The only way it would be viable for smaller theaters is if the cost is $50k, or less. Nobody's going to drop $120k on a "TV" screen when a $30k projector (or less) will do. Also, the custom sound workaround doesn't sound cheap either.

But, it is 2017, and there are much more advanced tech from other companies, and even large 4k UHD sets can be found for less than $500 bucks. Heck, we priced out a monochrome 36 inch tall, 38 foot wide sign for the theater and it only cost $4,500 shipped.

To be honest, I'm just surprised it took this long for "Big TV" to hit theaters. [dlp] [bs]

 |  IP: Logged

Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2441
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 07-16-2017 07:04 AM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Neil,

That screen does outperform (I'm basing my claim on the datasheet) a £30K projector big time.
You should compare it with a Laser HC solution, not with a NC900!

 |  IP: Logged

Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 3106
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 07-16-2017 08:08 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well then, who puts a HC laser in the back of a 10m screen?

The real benefit compared to ALL current projection solutions is it's ability to operate at very high ambient light levels. There are certainly applications where that capability justifies the high price. I don't know, however, where such a price level, application, medium screen size, and 'cinema' meet.

- Carsten

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11461
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-16-2017 08:41 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe the price will drop, dramatically. I believe it is already in the RGB Laser price point. Imagine a flexible direct view OLED screen. Something where sound can come from behind the screen. Something where you can curve it for esthetics without the geometric issues of a reflected screen. You could even make such a screen non-reflective to Exit signs. You have a VERY high contrast ratio. You have a technology that is more generic (OLED) rather than proprietary and VERY expensive to maintain (DLP). You have a technology that the likes of the consumer can make cheaper via mass production that DLP and cinema would never achieve.

It is the end game of cinema viewing, not projectors.

It isn't there yet but it is definitely like looking at the 1.3K DCinema projectors; you know it won't be too far off.

 |  IP: Logged

Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 2908
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 07-16-2017 10:28 AM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You said it Steve..it is the end game of cinema viewing..and the end of the cinema as a viable alternative to what you can get at home.

Let me elaborate: With projection technologies, there is theoretically no limit to the types of presentations that can be done, based on the use of a standard screen. You can do a shadow puppet artsy fartsy show if you wanted to, as an extreme example. Any type of direct lit [dlp] screen cannot accommodate that. With a little thought you could come up with other types of presentations that would be cumbersome or not possible with that type of "screen."

One real-world example from my days at the university screening room comes to mind. We had a film print come in without subtitles..the subtitled print was overseas and could not be sent to us in time. The filmmaker had, however, a powerpoint file with the subtitles on it. So we set up a laptop in the booth, operated by a student familiar with the film and the language, and used our video projector re-aimed and masked off to shoot the subtitles to the bottom of the screen. It worked great and got us through the show.

Now, in the above scenario, unless the new tech screen could simultaneously (in real time) accept an input that is DCI compliant AND an non-DCI compliant input whose location could be mapped separately, we would have been screwed. And we know that the DCI nazis would never allow such a thing to happen.

Obviously that was a very unusual set of conditions, but you get the idea.

Bottom line is, I still don't like how we have migrated from a proven technology that was working and versatile for many years, (and had it's own set of issues of course) to a technology that HAS to be changed/upgraded "constantly" for no reel end other than making more money for the studios (who are trying their hardest to destroy the whole exhibition chain so they can go direct to video or online).

End game indeed.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11461
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-16-2017 11:16 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony,

If that was a major concern, it could be accommodated. We have one venue that invested in auxiliary screens just for subtitles! That is, you can these two very rectangular screens to the bottom masking board and you have subtitle screens and project on them.

I do not think of direct view LED screens as any more of a threat to cinema as any other home technology. The classic restaurant rule comes into play here. You can have professional stoves/ovens all you want at home and for convenience and price, you can stay at home but people STILL want to go out.

I still maintain that what theatres should work together on is pushing that release window out to a year, particularly on A-list movies such that the home doesn't have access for, at least, 1-year.

If it is just technology, the home has eclipsed most cinemas a long time ago. Sound wise, there are many other choices and the person can pick what suits their hearing tastes best. Picture wise, 4K in the home isn't even "special" anymore, it is standard. The Cinema continues to be stuck at 2K with mostly miserable 4K options (low contrast, or speckle, VERY high costs).

It just doesn't cost the homeowner all that much to set up a reasonably impressive home-theatre with technology that stands pretty close to professional and, in many cases, better.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2016 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.