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Author Topic: Belgian Naming Convention
Robin Van Den Acker
Film Handler

Posts: 1
From: Brussels, Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted 06-27-2017 04:39 AM      Profile for Robin Van Den Acker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello,

We are a post-production company based in Belgium. We provide DCP mastering services for commercial and feature film.

Recently we stumbled on a problem. We live in Belgium which makes things more complicated because we have two main languages. That's why I would like to ask what the correct naming convention is when a movie is spoken in two languages? Whereas the two languages are equally important.

Another problem are the subtitles, we received two subtitle files. They both contain the same language and one is only partially translated (translated to dutch when the spoken language is NOT dutch) and the other one is fully translated (every sentence no matter which language).

For example we have the following names:

Without subs
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_NL-XX_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

With partially dutch subtitles
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_NL-NL_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

With dutch subtitles
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_NL-NL_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

How can we differentiate the two last packages/CPL's? Because they both are identical however the content is not.

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Pietro Clarici
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 136
From: Foligno (PG) Italy
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted 06-27-2017 05:10 AM      Profile for Pietro Clarici   Author's Homepage   Email Pietro Clarici   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think that there is a naming convention for such specific cases and it probably doesn't even matter, since I suppose these titles are unlikely to circulate beyond your home territory.

I would just use something like NL_FullNL and NL_PartNL and send along a document explaining the difference. You could also contact ISDCF and ask if they are willing to revise the naming convention and include this.

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Matt Smith
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, England
Registered: Apr 2016


 - posted 06-27-2017 05:58 AM      Profile for Matt Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello,

Is the other spoken language French? If so then I would replace this with NL as you say the two languages are equally important and name as below...

Without subs
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_FR-XX_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

With partially dutch subtitles (Dutch subs when French is spoken)
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_FR-nl_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

With dutch subtitles (Dutch subs for both languages)
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_FR-NL_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

Although according to the naming convention the lowercase language means it is burned in and not generated by the projection equipment.

http://isdcf.com/dcnc/home/appendix-1-language-codes-intro.html

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 3774
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 06-27-2017 06:11 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As far as I can see, the DCNC has provisions for multiple subtitle languages, but not more than one spoken language. As this, however, is a local issue, I wouldn't be concerned about these designations so much. One example is:

GSW-FR-IT for German-Swiss audio and french and italian subtitles.

I wouldn't care about the difference between fully and partially subtitled.

So, you could do NL-FR-NL_BE. This would only tell which languages occur in the feature.
If you are concernd about keeping spoken language and subtitles separate, e.g., I guess it would be okay to do

NLFR-NL_BE or NLVLS-NL-VLS_BE

Don't take the DCNC too formal. No server should stumble upon such non-standard designations. If your projectionists understand what is meant, mission accomplished.

I can bring this to the ISDCF mailinglist, but I guess they would say that for mixed spoken language, you should confine yourself to one prominent language.

Also, keep in mind the DCNC is not something that is communicated outside the cinema booth. It doesn't have to be comprehensive. It is an aid to the projectionist, and it is only meant to tell different versions of titles and make sure the projectionist is able to choose proper equipment settings. Indicating two spoken languages would only be needed if there is another version of the same feature with a different spoken language set (e.g. NL and FR, and NL with the FR being dubbed). How likely is that? If you only distribute one version of the title, it is not so important.

In your case, I guess the only important thing is to tell the subtitled versions from possible non-subtitled versions.

- Carsten

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Jim Cassedy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1553
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted 06-27-2017 10:16 AM      Profile for Jim Cassedy   Email Jim Cassedy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Matt Smith
With partially dutch subtitles (Dutch subs when French is spoken)
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_FR-nl_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

With dutch subtitles (Dutch subs for both languages)
MovieTitle_FTR-1_S-239_FR-NL_BE_51_2K_20170601_FRI_IOP_OV

This is an interesting problem, and it would be nice if the ISDCF
came up with an 'official' solution.

The only issue I see with the way Matt suggested above, is that according
to current convention, subtitle language in UPPER CASE (FR-NL) indicates
that the subs are generated locally in the server or projector. Subtitle code
in lower case (FR-nl) indicates the titles are 'burned in' to the image.

quote: Carsten Kurz
If your projectionists understand what is meant, mission accomplished.
Just last night, I did a screening of an Italian movie, with English subs.

The DCP arrived only late yesterday afternoon, and I got an urgent call
asking me to come into work early, to check the show because on the
shipping box, & on the CPL printed on the DCP itself, the movie was listed
as being in FRENCH, with English subtitles.

This made no sense. It was an Italian movie, with an Italian director,
with an Italian cast; and the audience coming to see it was expecting
to hear the dialogue in Italian.

It turns out the shipping info, the CPL info printed on the drive and even
the CPL info on the drive itself when I ingested it was just plain WRONG.

In spite of what everything indicated, it was in Italian with English subtitles.

"It's only a code"

I'm going to put a note to the distributor in the box when I ship the drive
back. I'm just trying to decide if I should write it in English, Italian, or French.

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Pietro Clarici
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 136
From: Foligno (PG) Italy
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted 06-27-2017 03:04 PM      Profile for Pietro Clarici   Author's Homepage   Email Pietro Clarici   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Jim Cassedy
It turns out the shipping info, the CPL info printed on the drive and even the CPL info on the drive itself when I ingested it was just plain WRONG.
If the movie came from an Italian facility, I'd say you were lucky it played out at all.
With very few exceptions, I believe the only English world that can effectively describe what we experience here every week is "sh*tshow". Local distributors are only looking for the cheapest encode, and that's the inevitable result.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 2610
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 06-28-2017 04:29 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can't your Belgians not just settle on one language and be done with it? All those exceptions make our software bulky and buggy. [Wink]

Since the spoken Dutch is most likely Flemish and not "Standard Dutch", I'd say VLS would be better than NL as a language indicator. Afaik, there is no special distinction for the Walloon dialect (yet), so it's probably best to keep it at FR.

There is no territory code for Flanders (yet) and since the release seems to be targeted at the entire Belgian market, territory would probably be best represented with "BE".

So, that would yield the following:

Without subs:
VLSFR-XX_BE

With Flemish and Walloon subs:
VLSFR-VLSFR_BE

With only Flemish subs:
VLSFR-VLS_BE

I think if this would make the official DCP naming conventions, there sould be some kind of separator between the individual languages. The reason for this is to keep the filenames machine-parseable, so you want to avoid the possibility of ambiguity, which could occur since language indicators can contain 2 or 3 characters. Another possibility would be, to pad language codes with an extra letter like X, if they consist of only 2 characters.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 2610
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 06-28-2017 06:13 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It seems I misread your initial post and the two subtitle files you have are both in Dutch/Flemish, where one is just the partial translation and the other the full translation. It was a long night. [Wink]

There is indeed also nothing in the current naming convention to take care of those edge cases. My gut feeling would say you should encode this in the "Title", because that's the most free-form field in the current naming convention, but then again, the title is not supposed to be longer than 14 characters and given the long titles of many movies, is already a pretty cramped field.

I think I would opt for a solution as follows:

Without subs:
VLSFR-XX_BE

With Partial Flemish subs:
VLSFR-VLSPart_BE

With Full Flemish subs:
VLSFR-VLS_BE

At least this way, two of the three names would be closer to the naming convention. I don't think you would need a special modifier for "Full" subs, since subtitles are usually expected to cover the entire feature.

Also, to make it into the naming convention, you would need a way to separate the "modifier" part from the Language code, to keep it both Human Readable, but also easily machine parseable.

In any way you should obviously provide a note to explain the difference between the versions.

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