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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » laser phosphor projector vs xenon (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: laser phosphor projector vs xenon
Mike Moreno
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: culiacan sinaloa mexico
Registered: Jul 2008


 - posted 06-06-2017 12:39 PM      Profile for Mike Moreno   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Moreno   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi guys.
Its been a while since i wrote [Big Grin]

I have been seeing and hearing a lot of phosphor projectors at Cinemacon and i check specs from projectors on both companyes (barco /christie)
someones said phopshor will die soon and that the cost is almos the same than buying xenon lamps. other claims phosphor is the best choice.
I also hear that phosphor has more degradation than lamps over the time.
wich option do you choose?

thans

Mike moerno

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15692
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-06-2017 12:56 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Its certainly NOT cost effective yet. I would use them in places where a projector gets installed and you would have a hard tim accessing the projector to change the lamps. Other than that, Xenon is still more cost effective, and I think it's going to be a while before laser is cost effective, if it ever is.

Mark

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2377
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 06-06-2017 01:03 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The spinning disk which is part of the light source has to be a future maintenance problem.

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 558
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 06-06-2017 01:06 PM      Profile for Harold Hallikainen   Author's Homepage   Email Harold Hallikainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How does the image compare between xenon, laser phosphor, and laser primary? It SEEMS that the broad spectrum (though "spikey") for xenon and laser phosphor could result in better color rendition for a larger number of people. xenon and laser phosphor also do not suffer from speckle.

Harold

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15692
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-06-2017 02:35 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They are still set up for the same X-Y color specs as a Xenon projector. So shouldn't be any different or it wouldn't meet DCI.

Mark

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 558
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 06-06-2017 02:41 PM      Profile for Harold Hallikainen   Author's Homepage   Email Harold Hallikainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It SHOULDN'T be any different, but in nature we see with broad spectrum light. It seems that narrow spectrum light MAY result in different color perception for different people depending upon the slopes of the eye's XYZ filters. It seems like broad spectrum light would result in less variation in color perception. Just a thought, not a fact.

Thanks!

Harold

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15692
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-06-2017 03:11 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Broad spectrum is likely something these projectors light sources are capable of... And I agree we see in a broad spectrum. In the end I'm just not sure it's going to look any different than Xenon will look. I have seen phosphor light projectors, just not in a side by side situation with xenon.

Price wise they are definitely not so great.

Mark

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Dave Macaulay
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1859
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-06-2017 03:25 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The blue is single line laser light, green and red are "full spectrum" taken from the yellow phosphor emission.
The phosphor disk on the NEC NC1100L is replaceable although not exactly easy to get to.
I don't see them as economical unless lamp changes are really a problem. Note that changing the laser module won't be easy AT ALL if the NEC is typical of laser projectors.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15692
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-06-2017 05:33 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave,

Exactly! Nothing on the NC-900, NC-1000, or NC-1100 is easy. Always allow "hours" to do even the stupid power switch which is sold as an assembly. Thankfully, they have been pretty reliable except for the NC-900 lamps, and those got quite a bit better with the version 2 lamp.

Mark

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Paul H. Rayton
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 198
From: Los Angeles, CA , USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 06-06-2017 08:22 PM      Profile for Paul H. Rayton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One little "gotcha" that hit us at our L.A. venues (one in Hollywood, and one in Santa Monica) is that the 3D glasses are incompatible between Dolby 3D and Barco Laser 3D. We thought we were being so clever to put the laser into the Egyptian, while retaining an NEC 3240 at the Aero. We could simply transport the 3D glasses between the venues and not have several hundred sitting around idle, since both systems work on to plain white screens (no special screens needed). Bad call. The two processes are mutually exclusive in terms of spectrum put out, so new glasses are required. And the laser-type glasses are even more expensive than the Dolby ones! Ouch.
So, if you are planning to have only one laser projector in a complex of several screens that show 3D on occasion, be ready to spend extra cash for double sets of glasses.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15692
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-06-2017 08:55 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's very good to know Paul. Thanks for the tip!

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11418
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-07-2017 06:30 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, was your laser RGB laser or Laser Phosphor? They are completely different animals. RGB laser is not compatible (different primaries). Laser Phosphor should still use the same spinning disc as xenon and be compatible.

As for laser phosphor versus xenon on image quality...I can't claim to have done any sort of exhaustive research on it but I'll say that the NC1100L is worse than xenon. Put up swept grey scale pattern and you'll see it trip all over itself based on frame rate. It will also pulsate based on frame rate on any image. Color wise, something doesn't seem right about it or it doesn't appear the same as xenon.

Mark, having the same color space does not make the images identical. You can define the points of the triangle and the white point but you are only manipulating the entire spectrum from those points. What happens along the way can vary. Furthermore, laser can more precisely hit its primary colors than xenon that has to be split apart into primaries, first. However, with laser-phosphor, you typically start with one primary (blue is the most popular) and then use another laser to get the other two to make "white" and then ram all of that through the same optical path to break it apart again.

The method of making the light absolutely has an effect on the outcome. Some have removed the yellow notch filter from the NC900 to obtain more light and then justified it by saying they calibrated the light. That is like having a parametric EQ in the system with a 20dB boots at 125Hz and say you EQed the room with bass and treble. Yeah, at 40Hz and 12KHz and even 500Hz it measures right but there spike at 125Hz remains. The notch filter is there for a reason.

So back OT. Laser-Phospher makes ZERO financial sense for most cinemas. If you look at the cost of xenon lamps versus the increased in purchase price for laser-phosphor, at no time is laser-phospher cheaper, over the life of the unit/ As others have noted, if the projector will be in an inconvenient place to change lamps, then the extra labor to deal with that will need to be factored in. Note too, the filter system for laser-phosphor is essentially the same as xenon so you STILL have a labor factor there.

Another thing to note is the decay rate on lasers. Most manufacturers quote a life span to when the laser output drops to 1/2. Think about that for a moment, if you spec a projector that when new hits 14fL, the manufacturer is telling you when it hits 7fL!!!! The BOTTOM end of SMPTE spec is 11fL. So, what you really want to know is when that laser drops to below 11fL on your worst format and if you have a constant height screen. So forget the 20,000-30,000 claim. Odds are, before you would have changed your 7th lamp, you are out of spec and looking at a new set of lasers!

Now, what you CAN do (and this applies to RGB laser too) is to spec a projector 1-over what you need and run that laser in the basement when new. Then you could push that laser replacement time WAY out there to 50,000-70,000 hours. With lasers you can run them way down and they won't fuss the way xenons will (it varies with the lamp). But if you do spec a larger laser projector, the graphs for cost just got spread further apart!

With respect to other image parts, laser-phosphor offer zero advantage. The contrast doesn't improve, no resolution benefits...etc. With RGB laser, then you get contrast improvements, color space improvements with a side of speckle.

Watch out for misleading ads too that proclaim that with xenon that the light drops to 50% in order to "sell" the laser-phosphor, just about all of our systems are xenon and they are all designed to remain with SMPTE spec from day 1 to day of removal (at warranty). And that can be up to 3200-hours for a 2KW lamp. One nice thing about xenon is that there is a wide range of lamp wattages to choose from. The key is to select the right size for your application to keep the light in the right range. For Barco, you can use from 850-watts to 2200-watts in the DP2K-12C. Likewise, on Christie, there is a 1400-watts at the low end and 2300-watts at the high end. NEC has 1200, 1500 and 2000 watts on their NC1200C. Pick the right lamp for your screen (I used the bottom end .98" machines as the example because they are the right sized machine for MOST cinemas until you get into the really big screens and the S2K projectors have noticeably crappy contrast ratios and often don't have xenon light sources.

Oh and Mark, the NC900C lamps remain crappy past version 2. Would you believe they are on their 4th revision with lamp models 06 and 07 (odd number lamps are inverted, even numbered lamps or for normal projector orientation)? I don't know if I've had any of the "04" lamps die yet but just had another 02 die.

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Paul H. Rayton
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 198
From: Los Angeles, CA , USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 06-07-2017 03:20 PM      Profile for Paul H. Rayton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, it is an RGB laser installed (DP4K-30L), which accounts for our little "problem" with the incompatible 3D viewing glasses. I didn't specifically state it previously, but our NEC 3240 in Santa Monica is xenon, and uses the Dolby color wheel.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15692
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-07-2017 05:27 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

I've had very good luck with the amps starting with version 2. I still see a few failures of them, but so few compared to the original lamps that it's really not much of a factor any longer and I have 30 some NC-900's out there. I actually have one customer that has to run on just one lamp because his screen is small and non perf and running two his image wold be way too bright. He is still on the original lamp that came with the projector and it's over 2800 hours, had several other sites miracously make it to warranty... but not many. There is an NC-1000 for a good reason!

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11418
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-07-2017 07:55 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The 02 lamps are getting between 2000-2400 hours for me. The original lamps got between 700-1500 so yeah, they are an improvement but I"ve yet to have ANY NC900 lamps hit 3000 hours.

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