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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Playing UHD Blu-Ray on DCI Equipment? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Playing UHD Blu-Ray on DCI Equipment?
Arnold Chase
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: West Hartford, CT United States
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted 11-21-2016 03:07 PM      Profile for Arnold Chase   Email Arnold Chase   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As UHD(4k) Blu-Ray content is now growing, any thoughts as to how to interface the players to a Christie CP4230 with an IMB-S2?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11982
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-21-2016 04:26 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
yeah...sorry no. The IMB-S2 has no HDMI inputs. The Christie DVI ports are not 4K. Your only choice for 4K that isn't DCP is to buy the 3G PIB and the daughter board to turn it into a quad-link 3G input and then go from HDMI to quad-link SDI...unfortunately, that violates HDCP and even if you overcome that, it is capped at 30fps.

4K/60 poses a bandwidth problem for typical DCinema S2 projectors. Barco got around it with the Alchemy because they also replaced the ICP. I believe the Alchemy is the only potential 4K/60 HDMI compliant means into a DCinema projector and even then I don't think they are on the current UHD standards but I'm pretty sure that they can and it is on the roadmap but you'd have to ask Barco.

I believe the Dolby IMS2000 can or will be able to handle 4K HDMI at some level but it too would hit a bandwidth roadblock at the ICP so some trickery would need to be done.

Most technology is going to be a snapshot of the technology of the day it came out so it isn't reaosnable for systems designed to come out in 2010 to be ready to accept things that are cutting edge in 2016. 4K is a small fraction of the market and playing non-DCP 4K is going be an even smaller fraction so there is very little sales potential until it can come along for the ride, like with the Alchemy.

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Arnold Chase
Film Handler

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From: West Hartford, CT United States
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted 11-22-2016 01:30 AM      Profile for Arnold Chase   Email Arnold Chase   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How was it possible for the theaters to use Christie Mirage projectors for "Billy Lynn" since they're not DCI compliant?

I ask because those projectors appear to be able to handle UHD content easily.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 11-22-2016 04:02 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They didn't need to be DCI compliant, as the signal they played - 4k/3D/120 is not DCI/SMPTE as well. They used a non-DCI format with non-DCI playout machines on non-DCI projectors.

This happens from time to time for non-regular showings. It is not a DCP what they play. The studio is free to issue special versions for these events.

BTW - most movie content on UHD is still UHD/24p. That can be used over HDMI 1.4. If you solve potential HDCP HDCP 2.2 issue - which can be done using cheap converters.

You still need to have a HDMI input that is UHD capable.

For know, I wouldn't care that much about playing consumer content in 4k on DCI machines. Most of these discs are mainstream blockbuster features which received no 4k mastering/DI, so, most of it is upscaled to UHD. Even those few titles with a real 4k DI need to go through some sort of rescaling to come out in UHD resolution, as UHD is no DCI 4k.

Play them in 1080p, I'd say.

- Carsten

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

Posts: 472
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 11-22-2016 12:01 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
HDFury has a devise called the Linker. This gets placed between a UHD 4k HDR player and any HDMI 1.4 device. It does many things but in this case it will allow you to downscale UHD to 1080p 24/60 yet maintain HDR 10bit deep color. Because the projector does not have the proper ST 2084 EOTF you will want to choose a gamma of 3.5 or higher. This device will also pass 4k into a HDMI 1.4 display but at 8bit.
In case of no HDMI they also have a solution called the "Integral" which has a split mode that will allow you to feed both DVI inputs (set DVI to 4k mode ) however they have yet to add the needed cinema resolution's 2048 x 1080 and 4096 x 2060 but will do so in next update.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 11-27-2016 06:22 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How much content is there available on UHD Blu-Ray? A few months ago HMV had six titles. The last time I looked, a few weeks ago, that was up to about twenty. I'm yet to see a player, though I did see a notice in a shop window that they had one on demonstration.

Wow do the players connect? Can the normal HDMI connector handle it? I don't think the dual link 'B' connector was ever used.

What codecs are used on the discs and are they physically just normal Blu-Ray discs, or the special three or four layer ones?

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: New Berlin, WI, USA
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 - posted 11-28-2016 02:01 PM      Profile for Scott Jentsch   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Jentsch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
According to an article in CEPro at the beginning of November, there are approximately 90 titles on Ultra HD Blu-ray, with 100 expected by the end of the year:

http://www.cepro.com/article/bda_sees_4k_blu_ray_gains_continuing_plans_new_promotion_efforts

The players connect via HDMI. Ultra HD Blu-ray discs use HEVC (H.265/MPEG-H Part 2) coding, and the discs are not directly compatible with Blu-ray players / drives.

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 11-28-2016 02:21 PM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
UHD Bluray players require HDMI 2.0 (18Gbyte) Cables connected to a UHD display. Further, the display must support HDCP 2.2. If any of this is not met, the player will downgrade the signal to 1080p.

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Anders Nordentoft-Madsen
Film Handler

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From: Valby, Denmark
Registered: Aug 2005


 - posted 12-06-2016 03:50 AM      Profile for Anders Nordentoft-Madsen   Author's Homepage   Email Anders Nordentoft-Madsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
New version of Barco ICMP should have HDMI 2.0 port, so UHD Bluray should be possible.

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

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From: Bradenton, FL, USA
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 - posted 12-06-2016 06:15 AM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A DCP still offers the best consistent picture quality. The UHD disc is another typical watered down consumer product with no quality control. The specs offer some improvement over HD Blu-ray but the quality of the disc's vary from studio to studio. PQ is all over the map and none compare to the same title in DCP if doing a side by side.
They look great on a 55" flat panel TV, what doesn't.

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Scott Jentsch
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From: New Berlin, WI, USA
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 - posted 12-07-2016 12:02 PM      Profile for Scott Jentsch   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Jentsch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think it would be interesting to see a split-screen comparison of a DCP, Ultra HD Blu-ray, and regular HD Blu-ray, using the same title.

Has anyone ever done this?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11982
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-07-2016 05:07 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can tell you that a regular Blu-ray is really sucky compared to a DCP...you can REALLY see it in the black levels, or lack there of on Blu-ray...it is like a little show going on with all of the garbage in the blacks. There are motion artifacts in Blu-ray as well. I and other have noted that if one converts a Blu-ray to DCP, it has a better look to it. my guess is that the conversion forces a separate frame rather than the player having to do it all on the fly.

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

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From: Toronto, Canada
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 - posted 12-07-2016 05:39 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"a split-screen comparison of a DCP, Ultra HD Blu-ray, and regular HD Blu-ray"
The results would vary depending on who runs the comparo - what are they selling?
The DCP JPEG2000 codec is non-progressive: each image is complete, but the images can be as good or bad as the producer wants. Higher quality means higher bitrate - and there is a set limit, plus the distribution files need to fit on the drives in both distribution and exhibition. They like to keep distribution drive data under 1TB.
DVD and Blu-Ray use progressive codecs: a complete frame is sent then subsequent frames are saved as the changes from that complete frame or the previous frame. The conversion system is set to ignore a set level of change... if that "ignore" setting is high the video looks super bad.
The ratio of complete iframes to delta frames is adjustable, fewer iframes reduces data bandwidth. More iframes means more data, fewer and the image starts to look ratty as the ignored minor changes add up (plus discs get damaged and a lost/corrupt delta frame gives a totally ruined image until the next iframe - that causes the weird pixellation commonly seen with scratched discs or fringe digital TV reception).

Someone trying to prove that 4K BD video is as good as 4K D-Cinema can make or pick a disc with codec conversion optimized for image quality (and high bandwidth), and it will be hard to see a difference unless a glitch causes the pixellation crap waiting for an iframe.
Someone trying to prove 4K BD is poor can make or pick a disc with the codec converter settings optimized for a low data rate. That will look like crap... if you watch many DVD or BD movies you know exactly what I mean.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 12-14-2016 06:35 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Barco is advertising the ICMP/Alchemy now with twin HDMI 2.0 ports (in addition to one pre-existing HDMI 1.4a port).

https://www.barco.com/en/Specsheets/c4753110-87c0-41f3-b609-f2c3f354a784/Barco-Alchemy-ICMP.pdf

Now, basically, with 10 and 12 Bit support, these inputs are 'HDR capable', depending on how you define HDR.
When we talk about Consumer HDR/UHD Blu-Ray, however, it is not about 10/12 Bit, but support for HDR 10 and/or Dolby Vision metadata - which is a very different issue, and there is no DCI gear yet that supports it. I wouldn't even know how consumer HDR/HDR 10/Dolby Vision (consumer) would be mapped into current 12Bit DCI gears operational parameters.

- Carsten

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: New Berlin, WI, USA
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 - posted 12-14-2016 03:57 PM      Profile for Scott Jentsch   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Jentsch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Dave Macaulay
The results would vary depending on who runs the comparo - what are they selling?
I guess I was not thinking the same way you are. I'm not looking for an agenda or motive, but rather a decent sampling of DCI's that might be on someone's server because they are running a movie after the home video release (a limited case scenario, I know).

Ideally, the Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray would be well-regarded in terms of the mastering job, but not out of the ordinary.

I would certainly hope that the ~1TB DCI would smoke the 50GB Blu-ray, and it should do pretty well against the 66-100GB UHD Blu-ray, but my intent was to somehow quantify the significance of the difference.

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