Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Madam Butterfly Digital Issues?

   
Author Topic: Madam Butterfly Digital Issues?
Jazz Hyde
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Lyme Regis, Dorset
Registered: Sep 2014


 - posted 09-20-2014 09:17 AM      Profile for Jazz Hyde   Email Jazz Hyde   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone. Newbie here, sorry. [Smile]

Recently we had Madam Butterfly come in on hard drive so we loaded it up and then found out the subtitles wouldn't show. After a quick email they released an updated subs package to ingest. After loading it on it promptly appeared to have corrupted our server.. Everything has vanished, the show player can't even find the show store anymore.

One of our sister cinemas said they had a similar problem after the new subs package had gone on but after a reboot everything came on again with the exception of Madam Butterfly being a corrupt clip, (theirs is a DSS200).

I was curious as to whether any other cinemas had the same issues?

Our setup is, (now was), a Dolby DSP100 with DSS100 linked up to an NEC2000C projector.

After much back and forth, swearing and hammer waving our support company gave up and replaced it with a DSS220 plus integrated media block on the projector, (think I'm saying that right!).

The only problem is lost files and we still can't show anything with subtitles... lol.

Any thoughts or anyone else have that problem, (SW England, UK here btw).

Thanks for your time. [Smile]

 |  IP: Logged

Amanda Mundin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Registered: Sep 2005


 - posted 09-20-2014 10:31 AM      Profile for Amanda Mundin   Email Amanda Mundin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We had the same issue with subtitles not showing up on the first version of Madama Butterfly on Sydney Harbour, loaded the second version they sent, rather than getting the usual green tick we got an orange exclamation mark, but the file loaded, and the show played fine with subtitles, no issues since that I know of, but we only screened it this past Thursday. Running a Doremi DCP2000 we've had for nearly 8 years.
Can't remember another issue like this, I can only assume that whoever made the DCP is new to DCP creation and didn't do something correctly

 |  IP: Logged

Jazz Hyde
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Lyme Regis, Dorset
Registered: Sep 2014


 - posted 09-20-2014 06:49 PM      Profile for Jazz Hyde   Email Jazz Hyde   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know they released an update because DoReMi servers were having issues decoding the subs but they didn;t say anything about Dolby.. :-/

They sent 3 different sub packagaes to add on in the end for our new server, none of which worked. lol

 |  IP: Logged

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3118
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 09-20-2014 07:38 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, you got a free upgrade to a DSS220 and IMB? Sounds like quite a nice deal...

Is the Dolby DSP100 even capable of playing SMTPE subtitles? As far as memory serves right, that thing does only Interop DCPs, so that could explain why it froze your system.

Those subtitles should just work fine on the new IMB/server though, are you sure you've chosen the right CPL?

 |  IP: Logged

Jazz Hyde
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Lyme Regis, Dorset
Registered: Sep 2014


 - posted 09-21-2014 02:15 PM      Profile for Jazz Hyde   Email Jazz Hyde   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If only it were free... lol

Managed to cut a deal though, so not all bad. :-)

Absolutely 100pct sure I chose the correct subs file for the new server. It wouldn;t play ANY subtitles at all for some reason. The projector software showed subtitles as disabled, even with the correct files playing, (that went for any sub'd film). However in an interesting twist as soon as I deleted Madam Butterfly from the system, subtitles for other films started working once more. I have absolutely NO idea why this might be..

I'm unsure of the DSP100's abilities, I must admit.

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5256
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-21-2014 02:29 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WOW -- erased EVERYTHING in the server? Now THAT'S scary. It sounds like this post would go very nicely in the "What Goes Wrong With Digital Cinema" thread!

 |  IP: Logged

Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2735
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 09-21-2014 03:33 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Opera is one of my favorite firm of music but I have never paid to see them in a theatre except that one time when I saw CARMEN in 3-D. I love the Met operas but I only watch the ones that are released on Blu Ray and DVDS. I have in my collection , performances by some other great companies such as La Scala, Covent Garden and others and I can always count on watching the operas with subtitles.

Even without subtitles, I can always enjoy well known operas like AIDA, LA TRAVIATA, TOSCA, CARMEN, FAUST and many others because I am very familiar with the work and that is the way I have been watching them performed by my local company , the Honolulu Opera Theatre and once by the San Francusco Opers. My local company now uses subtitles during their live performances.

-Claude

 |  IP: Logged

Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1556
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 09-21-2014 04:21 PM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen badly formatted DCPs do things like this before. Usually it's the ho!r made stuff.

Replacing the server completely seems like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. Usually performing a unconfig/config sorts it out. Worst case a Clea re-install of the software.

 |  IP: Logged

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3118
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 09-21-2014 04:29 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
WOW -- erased EVERYTHING in the server? Now THAT'S scary. It sounds like this post would go very nicely in the "What Goes Wrong With Digital Cinema" thread!
I doubt that it deleted the actual content from disk, it just didn't display it because something went wrong while creating an index of available content. The end result could be similar though.

What it does show though, is how short-lived this digital stuff actually is. The Dolby DSP100/DSS100 is barely usable in modern Digital Cinema environments anymore, it won't even play content at 25 fps for example.

quote: Jazz Hyde
Absolutely 100pct sure I chose the correct subs file for the new server. It wouldn;t play ANY subtitles at all for some reason.
But are there multiple CPLs (playlists) in the DCP? Most DCPs with subtitles provide multiple playlists: no subtitles, subtitles in language X, etc.

 |  IP: Logged

Kevin Markwick
Film Handler

Posts: 43
From: Uckfield East Sussex England
Registered: Sep 2004


 - posted 09-21-2014 07:16 PM      Profile for Kevin Markwick   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin Markwick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ingested first time and no subtitle problems here on a Doremi DCP-2K4. Maybe it's a Dolby thing.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12634
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-21-2014 07:38 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yep...the DSS100/DSP100 do seem to be a bit stuck in time. They are some of the oldest DCinema servers out there with designs going back over 10-years now. I'm surprised that 25fps is not supported since it does handle 48fps. But with System 4.7.3.3 being the last (last) software for the DSS100/DSP100, it would appear that it is ending with:

DSS100 with DSP100 MB
JPEG 2000 2D: 24, 48
JPEG 2000 3D: 24
MPEG2: 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 47.95, 50, 60

Note, it seems to be able to handle 25fps for MPEG2 files...just not JP2K.

Looking over the release notes, I haven't found where it excludes the DSS100 from SMPTE subtitles. Whatever issues surround SMPTE/Interop subtitles (and the co-mingling of same) seem to apply to all servers in Dolby's line up.

As for longevity. I think it was a given that the servers were not to be as long lived as the projectors and I think it is wishful thinking for the projectors to get much beyond the 10-15 year period. Going back 10 years...we are at the first of the CP2000 projectors from Christie and the DP100/DP90 from Barco now. While clearly more modern than the 1.3K machines that came before them...they are most certainly dinosaurs compared to today's projectors. They are much more clunky, much harder to work on, and much less efficient with light too. In about 3-years time we'll hit the 10-year mark for the last generation series 1s with the CP2000S/SB, ZX, M, Barco DP1200-3000 (and the 3000 is just a newer DP100) as well as NECs first offerings, the NC800, 2500 and 1600. One can clearly see the steps in that later generation of projectors and where we are now.

On the projector side, we are definitely seeing the effects of aging in the projectors as fans and pumps are starting to fail...things are becoming more intermittent in nature. Even batteries are starting to bite people. If you have a CP2000-ZX or CP2000-M...you better change that CR2032 battery (PCM Module) within 5-years or you will have a dead soldier on your hands...the battery runs the clock and when the clock dies, the logs go haywire.

And in series 2...the ICP has one of those CR2032 batteries. Only NEC makes mention of changing it though. Starting next year the first of the series 2 projectors are turning five (they grow up so fast). So I suspect more batteries will need to be changed.

On the server side...2014 marks the year had massive mediablock failures. Three of them were out of warranty. When you see that the price of the mediablock (or IMB) is about 75-90% of the system...do you replace it or replace the whole server? And if you have a series 1 projector, that is going to be a very hard choice since both Dolby and GDC have now dropped out of the HDSDI based server business. So, if you want to keep your brand, you may have to shuffle servers to fit the projector.

Another thing that may be hitting premature server failure came to light for us as we were doing PM calls. Depending on the proximity of the server to things like popcorn popping or kitchen prep areas...the servers can suck in a ton of crud that cakes the innards of the server. It was taking us, on average 45-minutes a server to clean all of that crap out (there was a kitchen below the booth..."drafthouse" type theatre). Some companies, like GDC have a foam filter that cuts way down on that...then again, GDC didn't go out of their way to make the large one easy to change. If you are in a situation where all that crud is going to get sucked in...consider "pre-filter" ing your equipment (just tape/velcro the filter material to the outside of the INTAKE vents and when you see it discolor...change it. It is a "pay me now, or pay me later" moment.

Bringing this back closer to OT...one thing that I have absolutely seen kill a Dolby server is if there is a file in there with a "NEGATIVE" time in the CPL. The server commits slow suicide as content becomes progressively unavailable. The first outward sign of trouble is if during ingest, content will only show up as "Packages" instead of clips. I've only encountered this with "home grown" content.

 |  IP: Logged

Jazz Hyde
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Lyme Regis, Dorset
Registered: Sep 2014


 - posted 09-24-2014 10:35 AM      Profile for Jazz Hyde   Email Jazz Hyde   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting replies, thank you.

The DSS100 server had been upgraded with newer hard disks, (we kept running out of room), but after Madam Butterfly, nothing would connect to it anymore. The chains engineer who set it up originally, called in some favours from the pro's but they decided it was better to upgrade it all than get it working as it's so old, (and came second hand to us 4 years ago). I can see the point I guess but the server they sent down had it's own issues and refused to work at all! So we ended up with a brand new one instead.

We did try a re-install of the software but still had the same issue, Dolbys software simply wouldn't connect. I gave up waiting after 6 hours of hoping... lol.

Another part of our trouble was also the projectors ADSL went down, meaning XDC couldn't even try to login and see what's wrong. BT insisted it wasn't them but after much arguing, they sent an engineer down 3 days later to find it was a fault in the exchange. Typical.

Naturally in this last week we've also had others coming in to add /remove bits and pieces as they all decided it was a good time to upgrade.. So now we have a 16TB Lansat, a new Arqiva box that has about the same storage space, (they left the old box connected too as far as I can see), and a Unique Digital ads server...

We also have a defunct Deluxe server, but they couldn't figure out how to get it downloading simultaneously through 3 ADSL lines, (Fibre Optic? That's SPACE AGE tech round here you know..), and left it to rot.

And lastly the chain decided getting the audio descriptive thingy installed with the nice headphones would be a good move, (pre-planned for this week about 4 months ago).

So yeah, bit of a mad week.

I hope I never have to see Madam Butterfly ever again.. I may cry.

Come back 35mm.. I miss you!

 |  IP: Logged

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3118
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 09-25-2014 06:22 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Jazz Hyde
We also have a defunct Deluxe server, but they couldn't figure out how to get it downloading simultaneously through 3 ADSL lines, (Fibre Optic? That's SPACE AGE tech round here you know..), and left it to rot.
Having the server doing the load balancing between three separate lines is probably never going to work, as you're stuck with three gateways. If there's no affordable fiber service available in your region, you really should order a bundled DSL service from a competent provider. Yes, bundled DSL services are also available in the UK, as I've had to deal with them myself, they aren't really cheap though. The bundling is totally transparent as they usually do the bundling and provide an NTU and you just plug in your router on Ethernet on their NTU/modem. Maybe you shouldn't ask BT, as even I had my fair share of trouble with them (and I had just very limited dealings), but some other telco that can deliver services on your local exchange.

You now got a satellite solution, so most features are probably no problem anymore, but you're probably also receiving a whole lot of trailers, the occasional feature that doesn't fly over via satellite and other promo stuff from either XDC/DCinex or other sources, so some speedy connectivity would probably help in getting content there on time [Wink] .

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Moore
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 207
From: Leeds, West Yorks, UK
Registered: Apr 2008


 - posted 09-25-2014 07:16 PM      Profile for Steve Moore   Email Steve Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve Guttag - does that battery issue apply to the CP2000-SB too and if so is there any documentation on it?

I was only thinking to myself, the other day, I've done the batteries in our 10 Doremis, on our dolphin cards and our CIneIPMs .. so I wonder if there are batteries in the TPC to remember time and settings or in the projector or both?!?

Steve M

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12634
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-25-2014 11:09 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is a battery (CR2032) for the TPC but it does NOT have the same detrimental effects (killing the PCM module) since the CP2000SB doesn't have a PCM module (which seems to have some suicidal tendencies, in my experience. If you don't change the TPC battery, you'll definitely have clock issues and there is documentation on changing the TPC battery (pretty straight forward actually).

As for the PCM battery issue...there is Christie documentation on it as well as a log puller program to flush the logs but they are only available through tech support. I have not seen it available for download. I don't know why they don't have a tech bulletin on the issue since it will affect all CP2000ZX and Ms and it is such a simple, preventive, fix.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)  
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2018 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.