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Author Topic: Complicated Projectors... Steve Matz Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 672 From: Billings, Montana, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 08-05-2014 01:05 AM                     Since I have no experience with Digital Projectors;I had to look at some U-Tube Videos. One showing a BARCO S series;another a couple Australian Videos on Security features of a Christie or NEC: I have come to the conclusion that these Projectors are quite complicated pieces of Equipment compared to Film Projection Systems.I consider myself somewhat Knowledgable in Electronics; which after seeing the number of PCB's and IC's in some of these Units you will definitely needed a qualified Electrician to troubleshoot problems if they arise.These Projectors apparently from what I've heard on this Forum and around seem to be Reliable.I know working with CMOS,MICROCOMPUTER,MICROPROCESSOR,etc.Chips from other type Electronics that many of these IC's usually run on low negative voltage and are static sensitive so they don't like extreme heat. Perhaps in the one Video,I believe it was a Christie Unit;it had a lot of Kooling Fans all through the Unit;so the Mfgers are well aware that they need to keep the electronics as cool as possible... For those of you that have been using them for a year or more now;are the Electronics Reliable and Holding up.I'm sure if any of those PCB's had to be replaced for whatever;your pocketbook would be quite a bit lighter...  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 08-05-2014 01:55 AM                     You can thank the DCI Police for all of this. You oughta see the fans in the SONY units. Thing is a-blazing with them everywhere. If you want to see complexity, just crack open a SONY SRX-R-320 unit. With the built-in storage server, internal IMB and the tricky "ballast" (rectifier), plus to add the goofy LCoS light engine setup.... Thing is a technician's nightmare. Expensive to operate and can only use up to 4K bulbs. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 08-05-2014 05:00 AM                     Steve, PCBs fail occasionally in all projector brands. However, given the complexity of these systems, I think we're lucky, as all brands operate more solid than probably most people expected in the early days of the digital cinema revolution. Lost shows happen rarely, and then probably most of them due to operator's faults, with the operator not necessarily being the person closest to the system physically. Every manufacturer has smaller flaws or weaknesses in their systems, but they do not lead to lost shows in most cases. That said - yes, these projectors are really overly complex - especially the TI series 2 electronics is actually a complex network of individual computer and sensor boards. Much more complicated than necessary. On the other hand did this complexity allow for quite some enhancements during the life-cycle of these machines, e.g. various 3D systems, automation/system integration, higher frame rates, the IMB system, adoption to DCI/SMPTE spec updates, etc. The Sony SRX-R515/510 is actually an example of reduced system complexity, even with the multiple lamps and lamp ballasts. The first one I have seen with only the necessary components. One reason why it comes at a rather small price. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 08-05-2014 07:44 AM                     Steve, an advanced component-level knowledge of electronics, or lack thereof, doesn't really factor in here. When a board fails, the manufacturer can determine which board and you will replace the entire board. Sure, I wouldn't trust just anyone to do it. But it doesn't require knowledge of ICs, etc. Carsten is quite correct. Reliability is fairly high, and many problems are operator issues, not equipment failures. quote: Monte L Fullmer If you want to see complexity, just crack open a SONY SRX-R-320 unit. With the built-in storage server, internal IMB.... We've been over this before. A Sony projector does not use an IMB. That term is reserved for DLP Series 2 architecture. Using incorrect terminology is only going to confuse newcomers to the field.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-05-2014 08:13 AM                        Lost shows are pretty rare, regardless of the technology in use. Lots of us have had close calls (late-arriving prints, late-arriving keys, equipment in marginal condition, invalid DCPs), but I can only think of a few times when I have actually witnessed a lost show (to the point of having to refund all tickets and tell people to go home): - power failure in building (35mm, but not the fault of the format) - bad igniter (35mm) - mid-show lamp explosion (35mm, but not the fault of the format) - bad transformer in AW3 platter (35mm) - bad Dolby power supply and no spare on hand (35mm, but not the fault of the format) I have heard of more than a few lost shows due to bad cards, but have not personally been present for them. As for show interruptions, I have seen more issues with marginal Blu-Ray players and badly authored disks than everything else combined.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-05-2014 08:21 AM                     I actually find that the series 2 projectors to be relatively simplistic. You typically have a central controller specific to the projector brand that is in charge of projector functions and getting everything booted up properly. This is typically just one board. An ICP (speaking about DLP stuff) that just controls the image going to the DLP engine) A power supply of some sort...some, like Barco have that and the "Fan Controller" module that also distributes power. So what is left? The light engine that will have the DLPs/formatters on it and the means of getting content into the projector as well as the method of generating light. The input is either an HDSDI type module or an IMB...the IMB is a busy piece because of what it is trying to do but it really is NOT a projector item...it is located in the projector only as a security measure by the paranoid. The other possible advantage to having it in the projector is not having to deal with moving the image reliably over distance with traditional copper cables. NEC projectors look more intimidating inside because they look like they have no organization and they like pulling wires rather tight and send them every which way. But look at a Christie or Barco...there is very little going on in there. Barco uses a backplane method to distribute signals about a bit more than Christie but by and large, when you open them up...very little is going on in there that isn't rather apparent to figure out. Is it more complicated than a typical Century projector...well yeah...but as compared to video projectors or even TVs...pretty similar stuff and compared to the Series 1 and series 0 (the Mark VII stuff)...it has gotten much more simplistic. As for lost shows...we have definitely had an up-tick in those since DCinema. We have had KDM issues...including having the right KDM but because the movie was made before 2010 the KDM didn't work properly with it! (Disneynature's EARTH). I've had 6 mediablock type failures in the past month...each one was a show stopper for at least a day (IMB failures are, by far, more prevalent than traditional mediablocks). I've had the bricked Enigma that canned a day's worth of shows, and ICP failure that canned a days worth of shows...and if you are unlucky enough to have it happen after hours on a Friday, you may loose the weekend. Some of the companies are better than others at getting parts out 24/7. While we did have failures in film, rarely would failures cost a day or more. I can change a diode in a rectifier, on-site...but when a ballast shoots its cookies...one is going to replace it...even if it is repairable at some point. I suppose that at some point people will have spare boards on hand for the sudden failure but the little guys, by and large, don't at this point and with the diversity of the projectors and the potentially short production life, it may prove challenging for people to have ready spares like we did with film. None of this stuff is going to have the 50-year production life like film did.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-05-2014 10:57 AM                     And if you can troubleshoot at component level then all the better! While most of the boards in these projectors are not field serviceable because of proprietary chips and on board certificates there are some repairs to them that can be done at component level. Same with sound processors and amplifiers. I used to carry a QSC USA overhaul kit in my truck (still do) and rebuild an amp on site rather than install a loaner and have to come back to swap it out. Power supplies are almost always repairable. The only issues one runs into are obsolete semiconductors. This happened early on with the Barco DP-100 in the SMPS where the switching transistors became obsolete rather quickly. Barco had to redesign the board with new devices. If old devices can be had then boards could still be repaired. Steve... On NEC I would agree with your statement regarding their Series 1 stuff. Those were a wiring nightmare. The Series 2 stuff however is really well laid out and quite logical. I never sold any NEC Series 1 stuff because of the rats nest wiring. Turns out they are quite reliable though... The lost show thing... Almost non-existent in my area unless a location looses power. Every one of my customers has claimed higher reliability over film even though they all had decent film gear. Most film equipment failures were bad diodes or rectifier issues of some sort. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-05-2014 01:44 PM                     Are you seriously comparing the NEC (series 2) wiring to the Christie or Barco? Really? The NEC is a jumbled up mess compared to the others. Also, NEC tends to suffer from the "dig your way in" design when it comes to repair. Often one has to remove more than they need to get to what they want. You can event remove the ICP, for instance without removing the two modules below it!  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 08-06-2014 03:34 AM                     I guess the design philosophy at NEC was somewhat different than at Christie and Barco. While the later two seem to have some "grand design" in which they try to put together the components in a more or less elegant, structured way, also keeping serviceability in mind, NECs design is much more "to the point", it get's the job done and doesn't really try to be pretty. They probably designed the components first with only a big picture in mind and then figured out how to put it all together later. This doesn't only reduce the amount of material needed, but also reduces time to market. Personally, I favor the more elaborate design, it has a more quality feel to it too. But unfortunately, it doesn't automatically imply that this design is more reliable or more durable. In history, the "simpler" and more to the point design often proved more reliable.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-06-2014 05:59 AM                     By percentage of our installed base...your theory isn't holding up. Furthermore, the failures are typically the individual modules (e.g. lamp power supply) so how you get the wires here and there have no relation on the failure mode of the module. By far, the best design from a service standpoint are the Barcos. Often is one thing is not in the way of getting to another. Most things are modular in nature and "plug in." Just about everything in one can be removed in mere minutes and with basic tools (screw drivers and maybe an allen key...most hardware is captivated too).  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 08-06-2014 01:16 PM                     Well, I did not apply my "theory" to DCI projectors just yet, I don't have anywhere near sufficient data to get to any conclusions. I also prefer the more modular design of the Barco projectors, most aspect have been quite well thought out, but my experience with NEC projectors is rather limited. This garbled design seems to be their trademark. It reminds me of a piece of PCB design software on auto-drive, where you just throw in the components and the software figures out the most optimal routing. The end result most often doesn't look pretty. If you would design it all by hand, it would most obviously look much better, you will probably even feel better about it. But, the auto-drive version *MIGHT* actually perform better... I remember trying to repair an old NEC XT6000 projector. An NC2000 is a simple beauty inside, compared to the mess inside of that thing.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-06-2014 07:29 PM                     Honestly Steve, I have had so few Series 2 NEC issues on the mid and big projectors that how they are assembled really doesn't matter much. What little work I have had to do has been very easy to accomplish. You can change an igniter on an NC-2000 in about 15 min. A xenon supply, about 35 minutes. Extra cash spent on "glory" projectors just because they are a little easier to work on is a waste of money in the long haul.... And at that on a 10 to 12 year life span device! Sheesh... The NC-900 on the other hand fits your description to a tee. None the less it is uber easy to work on and replace parts in. No two connectors going to a board are the same, so it's not possible to hook something up wrong. The hardest parts to work on... The lens mount and Ballast B. About an hour just to get the lens mount out of the thing, you must remove three layers of projector front to get it out. On the Ballast, about 70 minutes to swap Ballast B on my first try. The rest is very accessible and you seem to be forgetting that all the NEC series 2 projectors are very modular. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Matz Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 672 From: Billings, Montana, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 08-06-2014 09:48 PM                     That's another thing that concerns me. What is the life expectancy going to be with these Digital Projectors. Aside the Fact that these are probably like buying Computers. The Technology keeps going and your new PC is already Dated in 6 months or a year.I'm sure BARCO,CHRISTIE & NEC are constantly working on updated and Future revisions to their Models and also Coming out with Newer Technology.These Smaller Theaters that have already invested anywhere from 60 to 100grand to convert when they really didn't have the Money for the Changeover to begin with! Are their Projectors going to be outdated in 5 years and the Mom and Pop Theater find themselves in the same position dealing with updated/New Equipment that's going to send them into Bankruptcy.. In the Film business many of the old Theaters had the same projection Equipment for Decades. I know in the Case of 2 of the Downtown Theaters here(one being former FOX)They had the same Projectors originally installed in the 1940's clear up to the late 70's. I'm just wondering if anybody but the Large Multiplex Companies are going to be able to hang on if they need to continually update their Equipment...  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 08-06-2014 11:38 PM                     BARCO did a decent software upgrade from 1.13 up to 1.2. This upgrade did help out a lot of operating issues along with some other improvements. Now, have to convince BARCO to use HEPA filtering system... Is the Babcock still in operation there in Billings? An old TOI location 30 yrs ago .. and Verl Clark was manager. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 08-07-2014 01:23 AM                     quote: Steve Matz Are their Projectors going to be outdated in 5 years and the Mom and Pop Theater find themselves in the same position dealing with updated/New Equipment that's going to send them into Bankruptcy.. Barco introduced their first real production 2K DCI projectors in 2005 and many of those DP100s are still in production. Christie followed that same year with their 2K CP2000 machines. So the first iteration is very soonish hitting the 10 year mark and I guess that's about what to expect from it, maybe you can push another five years out of it. But, you now see that certain features are not available on certain equipment, like HFR, 4K, etc. Most recent equipment cannot handle something like 4K 3D or maybe even HFR 4K 3D and although there are no final DCI specs for that yet, those things will eventually arrive and will force another wave of expensive upgrades, for those who want to stay on the cutting edge. The advance in home electronics also forces this to a certain degree. For example, you cannot stay at 2K for eternity, if every new TV sold from 2016 or so is automatically a 4K device and once Netflix & co. figure a way out to deliver 4K content to every subscriber. The same will happen to sound systems too. If you're in a competitive market, you will probably have to look at next-gen sound systems like Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D. Those aren't cheap either. Unfortunately, for the "Mom and Pop Theater", it will be difficult to follow this trend. The bigger venues do not only have the advantage in scale, they also can easier shove their older equipment down the line: Upgrade your best/biggest auditoriums and use the decommissioned equipment in the next room or maybe even to another site entirely. It will also be easier for them to get discounts and leases. A "Mom and Pop Theater" can still be totally profitable, like operating in a market with no real local competition or in a certain niche. And, there's more to a movie theater than just the latest tech crammed into a room. There are many reasons why I very often prefer a well maintained and operated "Mom and Pop Theater" above some sterile, homogenized megaplex, even if the latter one has all the latest gizmos installed. I'm certain, I'm not alone in this.  |  IP: Logged

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