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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Christie 4K with Dolby 3D & SKA-3D

   
Author Topic: Christie 4K with Dolby 3D & SKA-3D
Arnold Chase
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: West Hartford, CT United States
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted 12-14-2013 03:35 PM      Profile for Arnold Chase   Email Arnold Chase   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello All,

Has anyone outfitted a Christie CP-4230 with a Dolby 3D system?

Because I am using a Christie IMB (and not a Dolby server), Dolby apparently is not interested in providing any guidance at all as how to do 3D color correction with the Christie IMB, OR how to use their 3D system with a Christie SKA-3D Alternative Content processor.

Christie is happy to sell you one of their SKA-3D units, but amazingly they are absolutely clueless as to what it takes to make it work with a 3D Blu-Ray.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11913
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-14-2013 06:48 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, I have several Dolby 3D/CP4230 systems.

Traditionally, the server is responsible for color correction and level balancing. Each server company does it slightly differently but the principles are the same. One measures each eye using content from the server for the 4 colors...put the information into the IMB, set the server to apply the color correction, verify that it measures right...measure the corrected white level on each eye...put that in...have it correct and verify that both eyes are both color and level matched.

For alternative content, you have your choices...I don't know if the IMB is set up to handle it or not. You could bring the SKA-3D into the DVI inputs of the CP4230 and set up the projector to apply the color calibration on each eye (same procedure as for normal 2D but you go through it twice measuring for each eye). You'll have two MCGD files and will use two TCGD files on playback. You won't get a level matched system but I've found that is not the end of the world...the 3D effect will still be excellent. If Christie set up their IMB to handle Dolby 3D from alternative content...then it should be able to level match too.

Christie should be the ones to detail the procedures here. it is all their stuff aside from the DFC100 and filter wheel. Note, depending on the frequency of your alternative content, you may have to set up a different calibration of your filter wheel too.

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Arnold Chase
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: West Hartford, CT United States
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted 12-17-2013 12:53 PM      Profile for Arnold Chase   Email Arnold Chase   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, I'm most appreciative for your help and guidance! The IMB color correction seems to be under control now, so the focus turns to the SKA-3D. Apparently these units just started to ship, so there are only a handful out there. Their main function is to convert 'consumer' 3D sources such as a Blu-Ray's HDMI output to the 'left-eye/right-eye' dual DVI-D format that the Christie uses. I've now have my unit passing 2D stuff just fine, but there is ZERO guidance from Christie with either telephone or the printed manual support as to what settings need to be made to the Christie to get alternative 3D to function.

I can think of at least several differences between the 'normal' Christie IMB settings and the settings needed for alternative (non-IMB) to be used because:

1) Blu-Ray is 8 bit color vs. 12 bit IMB (DCI) color
2) Blu-Ray players can output at 60p, or 24p, and as a result, "which the heck" flash rate does one use?
3) Different Color-spaces between Blu-Ray and DCI
4) Different color subsampling rates

Christie markets the main use of the SKA-3D as allowing the use of 2D & 3D Blu-ray players with a DCI projector. There is simply no excuse for Christie not providing a parameters setup guide to accomplish this very thing with industry standard 3D program material ...

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 3548
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 12-17-2013 05:44 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Christie IMB has no HDMI or DVDI inputs - hence it is not the IMB's job to receive the split 3D, you have to switch the projector to the twin DVI inputs. You will not find anything concerning twin DVI 3D in the IMB documentation.

There is also no specific documentation in the Christie projector manual regarding specific DVI input format settings. But I think one should be able to find the necessary settings by browsing the projector controller menu.

I understand your frustration, but usually this type of gear is installed and configured by experienced installers, with a clear request what to accomplish.

I guess Christie will be able to assist you once you get to the right persons.
Scalers have never been easy.

- Carsten

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Arnold Chase
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: West Hartford, CT United States
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted 12-17-2013 07:15 PM      Profile for Arnold Chase   Email Arnold Chase   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Carsten,

I don't think any of the posts tied the IMB to any input other than from the DAS or NAS. I only mentioned the IMB to note that any 3D program material that originated from the IMB looked and worked perfectly, thus eliminating the Dolby system itself as a problem.

The reference as when to use either the single or twin DVI-D inputs was covered in the SKA-3D manual, but only to the extent to use the twin configuration with the series 2 projectors. You are correct that most of the settings are found in the projector TPC, but that is like handing a road map to someone without telling them where to go. The entire purpose of the SKA-3D is to allow interface from a specific type of gear to a specific type of projector. Their brochures boldly state that the interface can handle any type of consumer 3D, yet the documentation does not allow a single type to be intelligently accomodated. I don't regard a "try every setting" answer as a proper way to go. If you were repairing a projector, would you start at the front and replace every part until it finally worked?

I come to this situation after 30 years of training and experience with large-venue video projection. My frustration comes from the fact that I did have a Christie factory certified installer do the installation, and HIS attempts to get ANY help at all from the factory was only answered by, "we don't know anything about the unit"!!!

Increasingly, I just shake my head in disbelief that this situation is regarded as 'normal'.

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

Posts: 472
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 12-17-2013 07:51 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Arnold I believe Christie's previous video processors were manufactured by Gefen. Any manufacturing badges anywhere on the unit?

Anyone know if the Christie projector handle's consumer 3D via DVI without the need for the Doremi Dimention-3D ?

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 3548
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 12-17-2013 08:46 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No, the Christie will need Split-Signaling on the two DVI inputs.

Some IMBs allow consumer 3D formats on their IMB inputs, e.g. the Doremi. But the Christie IMB does not have a consumer/HDMI input.

The Dimension 3D converts to SDI - the projector can use these signals with the same settings as DCI/DCP 3D.

Arnold - it IS pretty normal these days that documentation and training is skinny for a new product. At least during the first few months. And especially if the product has been OEM'd.

For consumer 3D BluRay, choose 24p, 4:2:2 component signaling, all fixed, on the player.
The SKA-3D will autodetect this. You can set output bit depth on it - I suggest 8bit. Set the Christies format accordingly.

From the manuals, it should be easy to enable 3D - the SKA-3D defaults to 3D ->dual output, that fits series 2 projectors. If you connect a 3D BluRay Player and play a 3D disc or test pattern, you should be able to see the Left and Right image on the SKA-3D two HDMI outputs HDMI-L and HDMI-R - connect these to a DVI/HDMI monitor and check wether the L and R is present by switching/alternating between these outputs.
If you are sure you see the separate L and R images, the SKA-3D is operating like it should. It will probably automatically detect and convert any of the common consumer formats to the 3D mode configured - sequential or dual.
If necessary, check this with ALL HDMI inputs, maybe the 3D will only work with some or one of them.

The you proceed to the projector settings.

If it doesn't convert HDMI-3D to dual DVI, perform a reset first, if that doesn't work, maybe the current firmware does not yet handle 3D consumer formats. Someone at Christie SHOULD be able to answer that question.

If you have trouble using the on-devices menu system/display, try the web interface.

If you don't want advice, don't read this.

- Carsten

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Arnold Chase
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: West Hartford, CT United States
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted 12-18-2013 02:17 AM      Profile for Arnold Chase   Email Arnold Chase   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]
SUCCESS!, and Thanks to all who helped!

Tonight, after a full week of struggling, the Christie 4230 FINALLY produced perfect, beautiful 3D pictures from a Blu-Ray player through the SKA-3D.

To recap, the internal IMB would play back 3D programming stored on the NAS without a problem. The internal 3D test patterns from the IMB would also play without a problem. The 3D test patterns from the SKA-3D would play without a problem as well. All that changed, however, when we tried to play any 3D content through the SKA-3D. 2D was fine with either the IMB or SKA-3D.

This evening we found a setting that we had missed during our "try-every-setting-on-every-parameter suggestion from Christie, which was made to the installer last week. Like the scene from "The Hunt For Red October" (when the EAM receiver was just starting to come to life but it just wasn't there), after the new parameter was selected, we were getting closer to success, with correct color space from the right eye, but the left eye looked like it was sampled with only 4 bits, showing weird colors and heavy posterization. Although we knew that the Dolby system was working just fine with other source material/inputs, there was little to no 3D now. The problem would also follow a cable or parameter setting swap, but NOTHING we tried would eliminate the problem.

Then Carsten made a post that prompted me to check all of the BD player settings (as it is an OPPO BDP-105 with a LOT of settings). Per his suggestion, I went through and forced everything that was set to "Auto" into the desired modes, even though everything had been fine in 2D. I even set the output of the BD player to "direct out".

Unfortunately, the outcome was the same....but...his prompting put me in a mindset of forcing EVERYTHING in the video chain into the desired setting, and eliminating every "auto-switching" setting possible. The one thing that had been a constant was the use of a 4K input channel for 3D, as it was a 4K projector and both 2K and 4K material were being shown. In 2D mode, the projector would automatically pixel quadruple any 2K material that it was fed, per the DCI standards. The one thing we discovered, however, was that the projector software would NOT do this properly with 3D DVI-D material. Even though everything scaled just fine as with 2D, in 3D mode the scaling screwed up something critical. Since there are no warnings or channel setup 'lockouts' to prevent this prohibited configuration from being used (as there is with other parameters that automatically dim out any conflicts), it's a trap waiting to happen again and again. Certainly it's time for a software rev change! But getting back to the story, Carsten's guidance made me continue to eliminate ALL supposedly automatic settings, even with the projector itself, so I then turned to the channel selection screen and picked a straight 2K input channel instead of the 4K "autoswitch" we had been using.

Viola, we were in business for the first time!

I can't thank everyone enough for all of your tips and suggestions. This was the Forum helping at it's best. With this 'real world' experience of new equipment combinations by 'real world' users, I would hope that Christie immediately makes both firmware and document changes to save future users all this agony.

Thanks again -

Arnold

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