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Author Topic: Sound of Music DCP format
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12084
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-16-2013 11:50 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Have any of you played the Sound of Music in DCP? If so, what where the sound format options? Did any offer the original mix (5-stage, mono surround). If LC/RC are supported, what channels did they put them on?

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Paul H. Rayton
Expert Film Handler

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From: Los Angeles, CA , USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 07-17-2013 10:01 PM      Profile for Paul H. Rayton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I ran the "The Sound Of Music" DCP about 2 years ago, and at the time it was standard 5.1 audio only. It was a rather early rendition of the show to DCP and possibly (though I seriously doubt it) they remedied the situation in a later version. Possibly someone else will have a more recent report.

It kind of ticks me off, really: all these classic musicals, with wonderful original, 5-across sound mixes -- all being lost now, possibly forever. All that restoration work on "West Side Story"? Not on the DCP. It will only be possible to hear that classic, splendid original mix if played along with the 70mm print.

I don't begrudge the 70mm print it's excellent audio, but I do feel that there has been a conscious decision by the studio "powers that be" to simply forget 5-across sound, even though the original DCI audio tracks specifically included LE and RE (or, for us old codgers, tracks #2 and #4) for film soundtrack uses. And there is no shortage of places with the appropriate speakers and amps, more's the pity.

I have one piece of DCP content that actually does have all the "correct" 5-across audio (and it sounds great, FWIW). It's from a private party, not a major studio, wouldn't you know. One day we had those LE and RE amps turned on and later played a normal DCP, and were a bit surprised to discover that at least one of those official LE and RE audio pairs had been given over to the descriptive audio track.

So, I fear, the battle is lost. We will never hear full "Todd-AO" audio again with the legendary, great musicals of the past in DCPs. And, as I say, it's a pity because with 16 audio tracks available for DCI content, why didn't anyone read the specs and put the descriptive audio in one of the OTHER channels, 9-16? I know -- someone cheaped out, and then it was too late to remedy when others adopted the same incorrect channel usage. IMHO, that was inexcusable.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12084
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-17-2013 10:49 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Long term, you will find that the ADA channels will be on 15/16...that is the SMPTE standard and is prevalent in Europe already. I'm not as pessimistic as you are on LC/RC. It is just a matter of time before the ToddAo mix show up on DCPs...they are supported in just about every format/standard out there.

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-22-2013 07:15 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So for all the dozens of Dolby's Atmos speakers all over the theatre, do they actually specify 5 screen channels with speakers behind the screen? In other words, can an original "5 across the front" TODD-AO format film play in an Atoms theatre and actually present sound in the correct location behind the screen. Or can it just place sound anywhere as long as it's out in the theatre?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12084
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-22-2013 01:19 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
5-screen channels is the "preferred" arrangement because it provides for greater localization. It is not "required."

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008


 - posted 07-27-2013 05:42 PM      Profile for Jonathan Goeldner   Email Jonathan Goeldner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
what's sad and unfortunate about the non-inclusion of five channel spread sound, is that in fifteen years time all these film's re ('down') mixed to 5.1 sound will become the standard and replace what 70mm sound sounded like. The studios like to 4K this and that, add more and more channels of surround sound, that it's basically turning it's back on classic film sound/music mixing. DTS at least had the common sense to jump on board and archive and encode the mag 6-channel audio stems in their original configurament for 70mm prints, yet when it comes to DCP application not one studio is implementing what is perfectly achievable in DCP form. It doesn't make sense.

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Chase Taylor
Expert Film Handler

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From: Troy, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 07-27-2013 08:16 PM      Profile for Chase Taylor   Author's Homepage   Email Chase Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This might help some of the questions, although not all.

http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/site/dlxportal/docs/The_Sound_of_Music_Ingest_Letter.pdf

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Jonathan Goeldner
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From: Washington, District of Columbia
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 - posted 07-27-2013 11:18 PM      Profile for Jonathan Goeldner   Email Jonathan Goeldner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm digressing here, so who did the DCP encoding of 'Cleopatra'? Another Fox release that could and should retain the five screen channel mix. I know that it's being touted as the 4K restoration, but is the DCP "true" 4K resolution?

back on subject though, I read recently that Robert Wise wasn't all that enamored with the implementation of the constant use of surround sound to distract what is happening on screen. This is odd, since it appears that Fox Home Video is pretty much going against the grain, by making the DVD and the DCP with 5.1 (discrete stereo surround sound) and the bluray with an additional two channels in the surrounds (7.1) - talk about being excessive and not taking Wise's intent to heart.

MGM did this as well to the 7.1 blu-ray mixing of 'West Side Story'. I don't know if a DCP has been created, but I'd be certain it didn't use the recently found, restored five screen channel that were culled and added back to the recent 70mm prints that have been making the theatrical revival circuit.

(... oh and I was more than confused what Sony did with the DCP of 'Oliver!' that I recently saw at Landmark E Street. The DCP looked exactly like the German bluray I have... but... unlike the bluray which has 5.1 audio, the DCP was not presented as such. In two channel stereo, which placed nearly all the vocals either to the left or right of the screen and nothing in the middle 'center channel'. This movie got the deluxe 70mm / 6-track 'five screen' mix for it's initial theatrical run, here though, for a film like this NOT to have a center channel of sound was glaring and sounded waaaay off.)

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Jock Blakley
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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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 - posted 07-28-2013 01:41 AM      Profile for Jock Blakley   Email Jock Blakley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The new DCP of CLEOPATRA that we just ran was 2K, and we've been promised a 2K of WEST SIDE STORY.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12084
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-28-2013 09:05 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Sound of Music sheet also seems to list it as 2.35 ratio rather than the 2.2...was it even taken from the 65mm elements? It doesn't seem to honor the original composition nor the original sound.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

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From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-28-2013 01:04 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For these transfers of 70mm shows, I wish they would use full-width and not letterbox inside 16x9, 1.85 or 2.39 the way they have been doing.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12084
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-28-2013 01:52 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What do you mean, Manny? Where is 16x9 coming into the discussion of DCPs of 70mm titles? Are you saying that they are literally taking the BluRay transfer and then just exporting it to DCP?

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-28-2013 03:15 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
2001 is rumored to be a blowup of the Bluray master.

Okay, I just checked and it wasn't letterboxed in 16x9 -- it was letterboxed inside 1.85 -- But the file size was very small (77GB total) -- and the on-screen image was heavily pixillated.

Was it in fact a blowup of the Bluray master? Maybe. Maybe not. The point is this: The fact that we can legitimately question this means something went terribly, terribly wrong. One should expect 70mm movies like 2001 to look better than typical 35mm transfers. Not worse.

I suspect the problem is that most d-cinema installs are only set up for 1.85 and 2.39, so the distributors feel the need to fit the 70mm ratio(s) into one of those, for maximum compatibility. This is wrong thinking, in my opinion. Dual inventory would've been the better way to go -- same as it was with film.

That, and DCI should've specified all known ratios.

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-31-2013 03:15 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Years ago when I was avidly anti-digital after seeing the first outings of pre-DCI digital projectors...you know, the ones that are now good for nothing more than being used as flower-pots. I remember countering someone who accused me of not being open to new technology. I said that I have no allegiance any particular technology; I just want the new technology, whatever it is that replaces the old, to be BETTER or at least as good as the old.

I am an exhibitor -- a curator of our motion picture heritage. All I want is to be able to recreate for my audiences the same incredible experiences I had when I sat as a youngster watching 70mm presentations of LAWRENCE or MYFLADY or 2001. I told my critic, if they have a system that would let me recreate the same level of image quality that I saw, I wouldn't care what the technology that was in my booth. I would be the first to embrace it wholeheartedly. But, I was absolutely, wholeheartedly sure what I was seeing in those first digital roll-outs couldn't even come close to reproducing even what 35mm film was doing at the time.

We certainly have come a long way with what digital can do, but as far as the great classics, if the studios are handing out a DCPs made from BR master and compressed on top of that, then digital is still nowhere near a faithful reproduction of what we know the original to be. If this is what the studios are pulling out their asses and passing it off as representative of those masterpieces in their libraries, then it is still a fact that taken as a complete system, from master scanning to the final DCP release and what audiences will see on the screen, digital STILL is not capable of giving my audience the same experience as those original classics. Without the will of the studios' honchos to make the BEST mastering for DPC rerelease, it never will.

What we have here is a failure to commit to the best reproduction quality possible. They are handing out a xerox copy of a Monet painting and telling the audience they are looking at an original. Damn Philistine swine.

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Jim Cassedy
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From: San Francisco, CA
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 - posted 07-31-2013 07:18 AM      Profile for Jim Cassedy   Email Jim Cassedy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ "Ditto" - what Frank said. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
There have been several occasions in the past year where I've had theater
owners who kept their 70mm machines 'in place' ask me what it would take to put
them back in operation again. Sadly, in most cases, the digital installers made sure
this would be almost technically, or financially, impossible or impractical.
(and then there's that little issue of finding decent prints)

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