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Author Topic: So how DOES a 2.35:1 DCP get shown at 1.85:1, exactly? William Kucharski Expert Film Handler Posts: 244 From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America Registered: Oct 2012 posted 04-25-2013 06:34 PM                     Is there an AR "button" per se? A checkbox or menu pull-down somewhere in control software? I would have thought, especially as scope films are just letterboxed within DCP frames, that it wouldn't even be technically possible, but somehow Alamo Drafthouse did it. My apologies in advance if I'm mixing intellectual metaphors here; I'm new to the whole area of how DCP works.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-25-2013 06:49 PM                        Well since it's all done by computers, it just shrinks the picture down to the width of the 1.85:1 frame. (That's if you're using a zoom lens.) So the picture is floating in the middle of the screen. At least, that's what happens here if I push the Flat button with Scope content playing.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 04-25-2013 07:43 PM                     There is no easy answer. All DCI compliant projectors use a mix of electronic and optic measures to scale and mask different raster images for flat and scope. flat and scope (+ 16:9/HDTV) are only memory presets that contain a matched set of these parameters to accomplish the presentation for a given screen. They are not equal for all systems, because the projection geometry and screen aspect ratio/masking, as well as projection angle, is different for all screens. There is no 'AR' button on any of these projectors, not like you can find it on HDTV or home video projectors. Usually, during a presentation, a format cue is called/executed before footage with a given aspect ratio is shown. The server calls the suitable format cue on the projector, which has been setup during the installation of the projection system. On all systems it is possible to override the current format while the feature is playing. You could e.g. call a scope preset while a flat trailer or feature is shown, and you will see zoom/focus and masking growing into their final preset states. However, some systems also allow access to individual format parameters during the presentation. E.g. all projectors allow to operate zoom and focus individually while showing a picture. If you accidentally run a scope feature with a full flat preset, it will be shown letterboxed, nearly full side-to-side and with black top/bottom bars within the flat screen estate (scope is 2048 pixels wide, flat 1998, so some pixels would be lost in the masking). The same as on a typical 16:9 HDTV. That's what usually happens during trailer shows when mixing flat and scope trailers. While it is possible to show every trailer with it's proper preset, the time it takes to adjust the lens and masking between individual trailers usually prevents this. Instead you would use flat and scope trailers blocks (if programming allows), or show scope trailers only before scope features. Basically this is no different from film, where you would have letterboxed scope trailers in flat, and 'real' scope trailers only ahead of scope features. However, it is technically possible to either have presets set up the wrong way, or use only partial adjustments, giving all sorts of wrong results. Maybe the guy at the ADH just operated the zoom button because he wasn't sure what to do, or maybe he though it SHOULD be shown that way because the zoom option simply allows him to do it. A proper flat format with a scope feature could not have caused what you saw. It could even be that someone created a stupid 'show scope feature top-bottom with masked sides' preset just to be able to fill the whole 1.85 AR screen there. I'm quite sure there is no 1.85 P&S version of that movie. Even if there was one, it couldn't explain the letterboxed opening credits with the initial format setting. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged William Kucharski Expert Film Handler Posts: 244 From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America Registered: Oct 2012 posted 04-25-2013 07:52 PM                     Right... what happened is that the credits started out in what looked liked the proper AR, then the screen went blank for about five seconds, and when the image returned it was more or less full screen on a flat screen for the balance of the film. :-(  |  IP: Logged Michael Brown Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1522 From: Bradford, England Registered: May 2001 posted 04-26-2013 04:07 AM                     quote: Carsten Kurz It could even be that someone created a stupid 'show scope feature top-bottom with masked sides' preset just to be able to fill the whole 1.85 AR screen there. This world be my best guess. As others have said, if they simply were running a scope dcp with the projector running in it's flat preset - then it would be letterboxed not full screen.  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 04-26-2013 02:24 PM                     "the credits started out in what looked liked the proper AR, then the screen went blank for about five seconds, and when the image returned it was more or less full screen on a flat screen" This exactly describes changing the projector preset during projection. The projector blanks the video while changing presets - hopefully hiding the lens zoom/shift/focus changes and video glitches as input/pcf/mcgd settings are possibly changed. Either the show playlist had this change programmed so that the opening titles were shown letterboxed then it switched over to a "scope cropped to be full height" preset because that way the image fills the screen and "looks better", or someone did it manually at the projector.  |  IP: Logged Jim Cassedy Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1661 From: San Francisco, CA Registered: Dec 2006 posted 04-26-2013 03:02 PM                     One of my press screenings got cancelled this morning, so I took some ACTUAL PICTURES to illustrate this topic: First Picture: FLAT Image With Lens & Masking Set To FLAT Second Picture: SCOPE Image With Lens Masking Set To FLAT - The Scope Image Just Gets Letterboxed Note there is no 'squeeze' - The DOLBY logo box has same proportions in both pictures Notes: The projector is an NEC 2000C. The picture looks washed out becuase I left the screening room lights on so you could better see the masking bounderies.  |  IP: Logged William Kucharski Expert Film Handler Posts: 244 From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America Registered: Oct 2012 posted 04-26-2013 03:51 PM                     Thanks, I appreciate the photos!  |  IP: Logged John Coovert Film Handler Posts: 3 From: Kansas City, MO Registered: Dec 2012 posted 05-17-2013 06:47 PM                     I'm a newbie to this, so sorry if I come across sounding like a fool. I feel like this is also a bit off topic from the OP so I apologize for that. We have a DCP presentation of CASABLANCA this weekend. It's aspect is 1.33 but the Sony 220's I have in the house it's playing only has presets for "Scope" and "Flat". My primary concern is running it in "Flat" will result in an improper presentation. Could any one chime in on this? I plan on putting it on screen after hours here tonight but I'm waiting for an ingest in the interm and would appreciate feedback and thoughts. As an aside its a real shame I don't have a 1. 33 35MM lens for our dual Strong Millennium 35mm setup or I could run the 35MM print siting next to me as I type this. If anyone has a line on someone with a couple of these lens in a 35MM setup they are getting rid of I'd love to talk with them!  |  IP: Logged Jim Cassedy Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1661 From: San Francisco, CA Registered: Dec 2006 posted 05-17-2013 07:12 PM                     John- Look at the the info on your DCP. It will most likely say "S" or "F" (for Scope or Flat) just any other DCP. Most of the time, old films like this have the !:33 or 1:37 aspect ratio either letter or piller boxed within DCP flat or Scope bounderies. Just FYI- - there are some proposed, but as yet unimplimented changes coming soon to the DCP naming rules, which will expand the info available in the 'aspect ratio" field of the DCP name. In the future, instead of just "F" or "S", they will label films like "Casablanca" as "F-133" or "S-133" which means a 1:33 aspect ratio within the usual flat or scope DCP aspect ratio settings. But as I said- - they haven't started using that new nomenclature yet. (To the best of my knowledge) So, for now- - just look to see if it says "F" or "S" on your DCP and set your projector accordingly  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-17-2013 07:46 PM                        What focal length do you need for 35mm? Or what is your screen size and throw distance? You could get away with screening Casablanca in 35mm by taking apart your scope lens and projecting it with the backup lens and the scope aperture plate. I did this once with that film. The resulting image is slightly too tall/square, but much better than cropping it to 1.66 or 1.85. This works best if you have common-height masking.  |  IP: Logged John Coovert Film Handler Posts: 3 From: Kansas City, MO Registered: Dec 2012 posted 05-17-2013 10:09 PM                     Jim, Thank you for the quick reply. Looks like perhaps technicolor has already started doing this? All the info I have is what came on the drive sticker. The Feature Composition is listed as: CASABLANCA_FTR_133_EN_XX_UK-U_10_HD_PRKC_20080423_AAM As is usual for these "US Classic" features as Technicolor likes to call them I have very little additional information to work off of. Should be able to put it on screen and flip between Scope and Flat after the late round of shows and see which is best. Scott, Good questions I must know the answer to if going on the hunt for the lenses. Currently I don't know what either is having just stepped into my roll here a month ago and this being the first time I've encountered needing to run a 1.33 show. The real problem I'll likely encounter is getting the folks that control the funds to give me the needed money once I know those details.  |  IP: Logged John Coovert Film Handler Posts: 3 From: Kansas City, MO Registered: Dec 2012 posted 05-18-2013 01:53 AM                     Finally got the CASABLANCA "133" DCP on screen. Looks like it is pillar boxed to 1.33. I took some pictures of the opening credits while pausing the feature to compare between scope and flat. I have some pictures I need to resize that I'll share to show the difference. For now its late, I'm tired and have to be back bright and early in the morning. I'm hampered by having side masking that doesn't allow me to properly mask the image. Other than that I believe I'm good to go, the 2K DCP looks good. According to my film booker a 4K of this doesn't exist. Now back to your regularly scheduled "So how DOES a 2.35:1 DCP get shown at 1.85:1, exactly?" postings. Thanks for being okay with my momentary thread jacking.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-18-2013 05:26 PM                     sidemasking is not a hamper but the betterway for a cinema to be done  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-18-2013 08:49 PM                     Note - the opening credits of CASABLANCA (DCP version) are "window boxed" inside the full 1.37 frame, meaning there are black borders on all sides of the image. After the opening titles, the image will "jump" to a slightly larger 1.37 size.  |  IP: Logged

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