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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » KDM timing question (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: KDM timing question
Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2346
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002


 - posted 03-06-2013 11:40 AM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Being a drive-in, I can see us getting to within a couple hours of a KDM's expiration on the last night of a booking.

Will a picture play through an expiry time (Doremi)?

I'm assuming the server validates everything at the start of a playlist (that's what it appears to be doing, anyway), and my biggest risk is having to restart, for some reason.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

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From: 퍼항시, 경상푹도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 03-06-2013 12:11 PM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the doremi's I worked with, a movie continued playing when the kdm was set to expire in the middle of the movie.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-06-2013 12:16 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This came up a few weeks back in this thread.

From DCI Specification v1.2

Section 9.4.3.5, Under the sub-heading "Security Manager (SM) Functions."

quote:
2. Security Manager (SM) KDM usage policy is specified as follows:

a. Playout shall be fully supported by a single KDM, inclusive of all required essence
keys and playout time window (i.e., a playout shall not occur that requires the
combination of two or more KDMs).

b. For any given composition, playout shall be enabled for any start time that is within
the KDM's time window.


c. To avoid end of engagement issues, a show time’s playout may extend beyond the
end of the KDM's playout time window, if started within the KDM playout time
window, by a maximum of six (6) hours.


d. Excepting the requirements of item 2c above, the SM shall delete any KDM and
associated keys for which the playback time window has expired (passed).

Emphasis is mine.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17753
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-06-2013 12:18 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes it will continue to play as long as you start the feature before the KDM expires. Note the movie has to finish within 6 hours as well, meaning you can't play/pause the show during the KDM window and run it the next day.

Also note playlists are MAXIMUM of 6 hours, so if you decide to do a triple feature, you had better watch the total length of the playlist because at 6 hours *poof* the show is over.

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Gavin Lewarne
Master Film Handler

Posts: 278
From: Plymouth, UK
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 03-06-2013 12:52 PM      Profile for Gavin Lewarne   Email Gavin Lewarne   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad - I didnt know this....what happens at 6 hours? does it just stop?

I was about to program a continious triple feature marathon but now i will do them seperatly

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17753
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-06-2013 02:29 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Each server may be different as I've not tested it on anything but a Dolby, but either the picture and/or sound stops, or the server stops playback.

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2346
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002


 - posted 03-06-2013 03:43 PM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, all. Manny... good info.

Brad, one of your customers was talking about that in another chat list we have. I wasn't aware of the 6-hour limit, but I'm sure other "triple-feature players" will be interested.

Does this regard continuous playout, or does a pause (intermission) in the playlist make any difference?

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2313
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-06-2013 06:56 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Once the playlist is started you can have pauses but the 6hr limit has to be considered. You could start a playlist (on a Doremi you just press "pause", the server does its security checks and stops at playback time "00:00:00" - put your first macro at +1 second or it will execute when you "pause") and then wait past the KDM expiry to actually start it.

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Joris Springer
Film Handler

Posts: 83
From: Almere, Flevoland, The Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2007


 - posted 03-12-2013 05:19 PM      Profile for Joris Springer   Email Joris Springer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The time limit in the KDM personally frustrates me, sometimes you get a KDM just for 10 days which is every 10 days renewed, all it causes is extra costs and extra money even though the logs already tell the distributor when a movie is played.
Sure a time limit can be useful but seriously, a premiere movie and a key just for 1 day, or even a sneak preview that is valid for just 5 hours?
Talking about being paranoid and yet, blu-rays leak out weeks before release, how about securing that more tightly instead of a movie that is not even playable on normal computers?

They said Digital would make the work more easy and yet the KDM's make it already more frustrating with all the licensing and serial numbers...

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 10-16-2014 10:51 PM      Profile for System Notices         Edit/Delete Post 

It has been 583 days since the last post.


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Tim Sherman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 125
From: North Ridgeville, OH, USA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 10-16-2014 10:51 PM      Profile for Tim Sherman   Author's Homepage   Email Tim Sherman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any idea if the 6 Hour time limit is affecting Doremi Showvault with IMB, running the most current Firmware? I ran a playlist over 6 hours last year if i'm not mistaken and it ran just fine.
The playlist I am planning on running is just under 7 hours. It will be a mix of encrypted and unencrypted movies.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3308
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 10-17-2014 01:09 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This has nothing to do with a general max. playlist length, but with KDMs and expiry.

If all encrypted content in this playlist expires after the end of the show, there should be no problem at all. If it expires while playing the show, the limit should apply to all encrypted content that was STARTED BEFORE expiry, but ended up expiring while playing. If you're playing a mix of content and you end up trying to start something past KDM expiry, you're out of luck.

This "6h limit" for showtime ends of encrypted content past expiration should affect all servers, as this is enforced per DCI specs.

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-17-2014 08:33 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How exactly does having a 6hr playlist limit protect the studio from anything -- perhaps some unscrupulous exhibitor sneaking in an unauthorized show or a pirate with an eye patch hiding in the DI bushes hell bent on doing some nefarious copyright infringement? If the right to play a title is given via a KDM for a certain time frame, why is there an additional limit imposed by the "player?" Seems the KDM should be valid no matter how the title is programmed at the site.

Really, it's a totally foolish and useless restriction borne out of the well established studio "piracy paranoia," ESPECIALLY as there are now exhibitors such as DIs who routinely run programs like triple features that play longer than 6hrs. But then again, never was distribution terribly concerned about the burden caused by their unilateral imposition of digital on exhibition.
quote: Joris Springer
...it causes is extra costs and extra money even though the logs already tell the distributor when a movie is played.
No doubt, Joris.

What I don't quite understand is, the KDMs can be authored to whatever time the distributor has booked the film; if it is known that an exhibitor is running triple features that run over the 12m mark, why can't the distributor just send a KDM that accommodates that need? Or it is just business as usual, i.e., the day ends at 12m and to hell with what the exhibitor needs? It's not brain surgery for the studio to author the KDM to end at 2am. What's the big deal or is it just orneriness?

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 10-17-2014 08:53 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Again - there is NO 6hr playlist limit imposed by DCI, studios, etc.

Such a limit is purely up to the server manufacturer/software programmer. They may impose one for certain reasons or not, just as they would impose limits on the max number of DCPs or KDMs in storage for specific reasons or not. Some may actually use the DCI-imposed KDM playback-expiration limit of 6hrs as a reason to internally limit all playlists to 6hrs max. But that is not what DCI intended with it, and it is not what DCI enforces.

In reality, this is not really a problem. There may be rare cases where a KDM expires unreasonably fast. Most of our KDMs expire at a time around 1 or 3 o'clock in the morning, but typically multiple days or weeks, sometimes months, after booking expired.

A KDM expiring at 1 o'clock in the morning means that the feature could be played until 7 o'clock if contained in a playlist and paused within. The last option to start the feature OR playlist containing this feature would be 0:59:59 or whatever a few seconds would give around checking for the condition. I don't see what the issue here should be. If a KDM is issued too sharp, then request another one and quote a good reason. True, festival KDMs with 3hr validity windows are stupid, but there is neither the server company nor the DCI to blame for it. If your showtimes are a moving target, you should notify the KDM issuing entity of this in advance, or make sure someone is answering the phone instantly once you need a prolongation.

- Carsten

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5279
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-17-2014 08:53 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How exactly does having a 6hr playlist limit protect the studio from anything -- perhaps some unscrupulous exhibitor sneaking in an unauthorized show or a pirate with an eye patch hiding in the DI bushes hell bent on doing some nefarious copyright infringement?

If the right to play a title is given via a KDM for a certain time frame, why is there an additional limit imposed by the "player?" Seems the KDM should be valid no matter how the title is programmed at the site.

Really, the 6hr limit is a totally foolish and useless restriction borne out of the well established studio "piracy paranoia," ESPECIALLY as there are now exhibitors such as DIs who routinely run programs like triple features that play longer than 6hrs. But then again, never was distribution terribly concerned about the burden caused by their unilateral imposition of digital on exhibition.
quote: Joris Springer
...it causes is extra costs and extra money even though the logs already tell the distributor when a movie is played.
No doubt, Joris.

As for the show to terminate after 12m just because it's a new day, that makes no sense at all -- the KDMs are day AND time specific, yes? They are authored to whatever time the distributor has the film booked, If it is known that an exhibitor is running triple features that run over the 12m mark, why can't the distributor just send a KDM that accommodates that need? Or it is just business as usual, i.e., the day ends at 12m and to hell with that it will screw the exhibitor? It's not brain surgery for the studio to just author the KDM to end at 2am rather than midnight. What's the big deal or is it just orneriness? Or worse, do they sit in their offices thinking what a laugh it is that they can cause a guy's show to stop right in the middle of the climax? Or worse than that, do they not even care?

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