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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » subtitles in digital (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: subtitles in digital
Steve Yamane
Film Handler

Posts: 1
From: san francisco, ca/ usa
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted 11-09-2011 06:34 PM      Profile for Steve Yamane   Email Steve Yamane   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any ideas what is happening when the subtitles suddenly disappear
from a film that's digital?

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Bajsic Bojan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 188
From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu
Registered: Aug 2008


 - posted 11-09-2011 07:14 PM      Profile for Bajsic Bojan   Email Bajsic Bojan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hello and welcome

a) from my very limited knowledge it can mostly happen on digital when the subtitling is done on the projector end. If you have the subtitle engine on the server end, try using that instead of letting TI CineCanvas do the job.

b) it can apparently also happen when "non-regular" characters appear. check if it always happens in the same spot, search the xmls for the culprit, then inform you distributor.

c)It would be most helpful if you specify which projector and server you are using.

d) this should be moved to the Digital subforum.

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Elise Brandt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 160
From: Kuusankoski, FIN/ Kouvola, Finland
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 11-12-2011 12:55 AM      Profile for Elise Brandt   Email Elise Brandt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey,

We've been wondering the same thing. We had a theory of the CineCanvas system just malfunctioning and thought maybe it could be turned back on during the run, but finally once we got a test situation it didn't work that way. So we have no idea what's wrong either, sorry. Rebooting usually takes care of the problem but it's annoying having to do that.

We have three Barcos, one series II and two I's (DP1200's) with Dolby servers and they all have this problem, the series II more than the others. Maybe happens once in every two weeks, sometimes three days in a row and sometimes a month goes without an incident.

We have not figured out any pattern to how and when this occurs, only that it's usually from the beginning of a clip, not in the middle of a feature. Sometimes just starting the clip over helps, but rebooting is the surer fix. Just, as said, annoying.

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Kris Verhanneman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Belgium
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 11-12-2011 03:16 AM      Profile for Kris Verhanneman   Email Kris Verhanneman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Elise,
try changing the network cable between the projector and server.

Try to find a very good one.

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 11-12-2011 04:19 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Make sure that the TI firmware is up to date. As they seem to have done a lot of work on CineCanvas lately.

Series 1 current is version 15.01

Series 2 is on 3.1.324

In the early days of Series II, we saw a lot of DCPs which the subtitles simply didn't work. This was down to missing fonts and other bugs in the CineCanvas part of the TI firmware. it would appear that if the DCP calls for a particular font/size, and the projector doesn't have this, the CineCanvas just stops working.

On current firmwares I've heard no reports of subtitling errors, for some months now.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11699
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-12-2011 05:09 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If one looks at what is fixed in the various updates...CineCanvas seems to be on damn near every one for TI. One would think that moving this sort of thing would not be so hard.

A better scheme would be to have every projector have a default font...in the absence of a designated font, it uses its default font. The same with the player...it should always send the ASCII characters and if there is a designated font to send...so be it...but in absence of that, just send the ASCII and let the projector use its default font.

Readable text is better than no text.

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 11-12-2011 05:20 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Amen to that Steve!

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Kris Verhanneman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Belgium
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 11-12-2011 06:33 AM      Profile for Kris Verhanneman   Email Kris Verhanneman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not so long ago we had some issues with subtitles.
The probleme was that they were in version 1.1 in stead of version 1.0. (dolby servers)

Not sure why or how this changes much. But why always changing thing that work? Somebody can explain what the differences are between both?

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 3247
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 11-12-2011 10:08 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is true, as Steve mentioned, that a lot of work is being done currently on subtitling and closed caption/HI/VI support, also by SMPTE. I guess we will have to live with some issues for a while. I think the server generated titles can still be activated on the Doremi servers. Maybe that is a more stable solution. Doremi implemented it when series II in the beginning had no CineCanvas at all. And now it certainly depends a lot on TI software version in the projectors.

- Carsten

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Jussi Siponen
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Mikkeli, Itä-Suomi, FINLAND
Registered: Jan 2010


 - posted 11-12-2011 12:22 PM      Profile for Jussi Siponen   Email Jussi Siponen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm in the same boat as Elise with the subtitle (un)reliability.

The latest TI update has not proven to be any more reliable than the .314 release was and has problems with font rendering (which looks something like this simulated picture - pay attention to the letter "a"):

 -

When the subtitle failure occurs, I've spied something along the lines of "NO SUBTITLE" being logged on the Dolby DSS200 log console (Ctrl-Alt-F5), so maybe the problem is with the server software rather than ICP software after all.

We are still running 4.2.1(3), which is at least three GA releases behind the current version (4.3.5(6), I think...). Upgrading might improve the subtitle situation, but would introduce potential boot volume corruptions and other show stopper level issues I don't need anywhere near the operations I support.

I mean, seriously, talk about "out of the pan and into the fire"... I'll be upgrading servers as soon as it's either enforced due to compliancy reasons OR Dolby does a release which doesn't [sex] you, thank you very much.

<rant>I think all these problems are due to the subtitler apparently being nothing more than a mandatory evil for the software makers (yes, that would be you Dolby & TI) -- a feature that is a mandatory part of the DCI spec, but is virtually unused on their largest market (USA).

If it happens to be a mission critical feature on *your* particular market -- well, sucks to be you!

The fact that Series II projectors were on market for 6 months or so without a working Cinecanvas implementation serves to illustrate just how unimportant it's considered to be.

Take note how web browser makers bend over backwards to make sense of just about any stinking heap of [bs] HTML and display at least SOMETHING.
</rant>

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11699
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-12-2011 01:33 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is the problem right there! It isn't English! Perhaps if you needed English text it would work [Wink]

As to Dolby's releases...you are only one GA behind. The current GA is 4.3.0 (36). 4.3.5 (6) is not going be the next GA but it is a good version. 4.3.0.36 was mostly good...the only problem I've had with it is a potential corruption on boot up. It is VERY random (I've had exactly two servers have it happen) and one needs to run the "Upgrade" disc on it to fix it. The problem is corrected in 4.3.5.6 but I think there are one or two additional tweaks before the GA. Note, the next release will also allow remoting in via VNC.

4.2.1.3 was a good release but the auto-3D feature of 4.3.0.36 was the "sell" for me to make the jump.

As to the whole subtitling thing...it has not come up for me...being in the USA market so I can't comment on ANY version or system's particular reliability on it.

The whole rushing of series II machines to market one can not blame any of the player manufacturers...they were having to design software without any means to test it on actual units. Series II was definitely rushed and forced. VPF plans were pretty much tied to it. For me, and many others, it was a nightmare as both projector and server software was changing almost daily.

Believe it or not, we are STILL dealing with the issues that started in 2010...every ICP that came out before TI version 3.0.x should be on a suicide watch...any one of them can crash and is actively trying to do so as a corruption builds. Barco and Christie have a plan/procedure to reflash the ICP and start it on 3.x.x and not have the problem (we are waiting on NEC to have theirs). Series II was definitely not ready for prime-time in many areas, not just Subtitling, when it came out.

-Steve

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15869
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-12-2011 02:32 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve...

Since the automatic update appeared on the NEC DCC app in conjunction with SP-3 I have not had any real issues loading firmware into ICP's or with them being stable or not afterwords. I have taken well over a dozen ICP's all the way from version 1 firmware up to the current version and all of them are stable and another 50 or so projectors from 3.00 up to the current version. I had three or four ICP's that were difficult to get to load but they DID eventually take the update... on perhaps the third or fourth try and they too have been just fine. Mike's was one of those, his original firmware upon installation was version 1.0! The DCC also still offers manual update and if an update hangs at one of the levels NEC reccomends that you do that level manually as it will eventually load just fine.

I have had more trouble installing Gore Boards in Series 1 Christie's than any other single problem or issue out there... Talk about flakey!

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11699
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-12-2011 03:49 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

The ICP problem is not about taking updates or not it is about an inherent corruption problem in the ICP software 2.x.x and it affects ALL ICPs that had firmware less than 3.x.x...NEC included and, if you ask, you will get it confirmed by NEC. NEC does not, as yet, have a field reflash procedure for ICP.

I have had NECs with SP3.x.x cease to communicate with the the projector. Though the DCC was unable to do anything about it (but confirm it couldn't update), I was able to get the ICP to take a ICP firmware update to restore communication directly...However, it has been confirmed by NEC that while I got the projector going, that the underlying problem remains.

The difficult to take an update is indicative of the problem...getting the SP to take did not fix it, however. The only thing that is going to fix it is to REFLASH the ICP back to nothing and then reload EVERYTHING back on. The more times you reboot the projector, the greater your chances of corruption.

-Steve

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Jorgen Larsen
Film Handler

Posts: 17
From: Denmark
Registered: Jun 2009


 - posted 11-12-2011 04:45 PM      Profile for Jorgen Larsen   Email Jorgen Larsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here in Denmark are several cinemas hit by this text problem. It is a big problem and everyone is trying to solve as soon as possible. Here in Denmark has several cinemas restored texts by restarting the system and more strange, remove certain trailers especially ID:A. Maybe it's a coincidence that it helped to remove the trailer, but it helped. Poorly copied content delivered on USB sticks and small hard drives instead of CRU drives may be the problem in conjunction with a highly sensitive Cine canvas. We are waiting here in Denmark for an update to cinecanvas from TI. Asia and Japan are also aware of this problem as it is global. TI must urgently come up with a solution to this problem.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15869
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-13-2011 08:51 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve.... I just have not seen that problem and all of my customers do reboot theor projectors every day. The ones on VPF leave them on standby though as you know and the rest power down all the way. It will be interesting to see if NEC does indeed come out with a fix... for a problem I have yet to see in any of the ~50 projectors I have installed. If there is really a problem to me this seems like it should rest in the hands of T.I. and not the individual projector manufacturer... all the ICP's are more or less the same T.I. circuit anyway and the NEC ICP board is actually built by T.I. for NEC.

Mark

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