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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Subtitle problem (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Subtitle problem
Frederick Lanoy
Film Handler

Posts: 85
From: North of France
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 09-09-2011 07:16 AM      Profile for Frederick Lanoy   Email Frederick Lanoy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello everybody,

With the new generation of digital projector (serie II), it seems that it's now the projector that handles subtitles. There were some problems with projector which crops the bottom of the line in scope.

My question is : is there a backup solution when you have an issue ? Can we force the server to handle the subtitle with Cine Canvas system ? How the operator can do it ? Honestly, it's quite unclear to me.

Thanks for your answers.
Best,
Frederick.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12208
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-09-2011 11:15 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While I have not had to deal with the Open Captions yet...

It seems that almost every ICP (TI) update seems to have some Cine Canvas fix in it. The current ICP firmware is 3.1.324 and if you are not on that you may have issues there. Please also note...all ICPs with firmware below 3.1 or were upgraded to 3.1 from a lesser version...are heading for a possible train wreck. It appears that the ICP could get corrupt though normal operation. Barco has a package for basically reflashing the ICP, loading the default stuff on and then restoring your projector to the settings you may have calibrated. However, it is entirely possible one has to put the ICP into "boot mode" to get the thing updated (depends on the state of the particular ICP).

Now, if your problem is one of cropping the Scope picture that is putting the subtitled too low...then lens shifting and resetting the "masking" in the DLP to raise the entire image up would be a solution...to use the "Positioning" (aka Resize) is another possibility.

-Steve

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Olivier Lemaire
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 118
From: Paris, Ile de France, France
Registered: Jan 2010


 - posted 09-09-2011 03:28 PM      Profile for Olivier Lemaire   Author's Homepage   Email Olivier Lemaire   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frederick Lanoy

My question is : is there a backup solution when you have an issue ?

Yes: fall backing to server subtitling engine.
quote: Frederick Lanoy
Can we force the server to handle the subtitle with Cine Canvas system ?
Yes
quote: Frederick Lanoy
How the operator can do it ? Honestly, it's quite unclear to me.
Example with Doremi:
* Device Manager application
* enable the device "subtitle engine"
* disable "enable subtilte" on the projector device
* let's play your movie
Need to be admin access on the Doremi - which is the default maintenance user of Doremi servers.

For other server brands, consult your documentation (User Manual / Installation Manual).

Hope this help.

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Frederick Lanoy
Film Handler

Posts: 85
From: North of France
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 09-10-2011 07:09 AM      Profile for Frederick Lanoy   Email Frederick Lanoy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Steve and Olivier,

Thanks for your help. I understand better now.

All the best.

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Jussi Siponen
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Mikkeli, Itä-Suomi, FINLAND
Registered: Jan 2010


 - posted 09-11-2011 01:23 PM      Profile for Jussi Siponen   Email Jussi Siponen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Frederick,

Like Steve said, one possible cause for text cropping is too much masking. I'm not sure how much of the following is specific to Barco projectors / applies to Series II across different brands, but here's another possible issue I've personally seen "in the wild":

At one point, the firmware of at least Barco's Series II projectors had a firmware bug causing the picture to flicker in Scope. As a temporary work-around, the installer putting the projector in used Flat settings as a starting point to get at least *something* on screen (after all, commercial cinemas tend not to be impressed if you go "sorry guys, it's not possible do Scope for now"...) with the intention of fixing it later.

Well, we all know what happens to such hacks -- it's no surprise that also this one lived on even after the firmware issue had been fixed.

At the time, Cinecanvas subtitles didn't work at all in Series II projectors. As a work-around, movies were distributed with subtitles burned in, so no-one noticed the problem initially. Eventually, TI released a ICP version with working Cinecanvas implementation, the release got rolled out to the cinemas and distributors went back to Cinecanvas subtitles. And suddenly, the cinema starts complaining about cropped subtitles in Scope...

After a *lot* of head scratching I finally noticed that the Scope macro was using Active Area of 1998 x 1080 and the whole sad story was revealed. Turns out, subtitle rendering position is relative to Active Area -- which in this case was much taller than the picture, resulting in subtitles being drawn too low and therefore getting cropped.

Naturally, the bad Scope macro had to be scrapped and done again, but the root cause for the subtitle problem was the incorrect Active Area.

 -
 -

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Frederick Lanoy
Film Handler

Posts: 85
From: North of France
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 09-11-2011 01:52 PM      Profile for Frederick Lanoy   Email Frederick Lanoy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Jussi, i was'nt aware of this problem. Your explanation is interesting. I going to check my projector setting.

Best regards.

Frédérick.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12208
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-11-2011 03:12 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Please note...if this was the cause of the problem (and I never ran into the scope issue in the US), then it would affect ALL DLP projectors since that is on the TI portion of the system. The Active area is defined in the PCF section of the projector but Barco does break that part out...which is handy if one needs to use the scaler function.

But I can see that if the active area is not entered correctly that the subtitled might not be rendered in the correct place.

I have also seen where PCF files had the active area be the entire chip (2048 x 1080) for both Flat and Scope. Depending on your masking system, you would notice this...that is, if you needed to shift your image down for a top-only masking and you didn't want to use lens shift.

-Steve

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Elise Brandt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 160
From: Kuusankoski, FIN/ Kouvola, Finland
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 09-12-2011 05:59 AM      Profile for Elise Brandt   Email Elise Brandt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Jussi, of course this was the first thing to come to mind since we did experience this particular problem, but I do not have the expertise to express the root cause so nicely. Thanks for doing so.

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Waiyawit Wiangchan
Film Handler

Posts: 5
From: BKK
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted 09-15-2011 03:23 AM      Profile for Waiyawit Wiangchan   Email Waiyawit Wiangchan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is it adjustment about Subtitle delay preview with Barco?
Would be very much appreciated.

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Jussi Siponen
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Mikkeli, Itä-Suomi, FINLAND
Registered: Jan 2010


 - posted 11-12-2011 12:37 PM      Profile for Jussi Siponen   Email Jussi Siponen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Frederick,

Are you still around? You never reported back on the status of your subtitle problem (what the problem was, how it was resolved, etc.)...

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Frederick Lanoy
Film Handler

Posts: 85
From: North of France
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 11-12-2011 02:52 PM      Profile for Frederick Lanoy   Email Frederick Lanoy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jussi,

Yes, i'm still around. Actually, some projectionnists told me they had some subtitles problems with serie II projectors.

I never had problem with my Barcos (serie 01 and 02). However, i wanted to know more about this trouble and what we can do to solve it.

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 11-06-2013 02:40 PM      Profile for System Notices         Edit/Delete Post 

It has been 724 days since the last post.


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Giorgio Volpi
Film Handler

Posts: 51
From: Caracas - Venezuela
Registered: Mar 2002


 - posted 11-06-2013 02:40 PM      Profile for Giorgio Volpi   Email Giorgio Volpi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Guys!
I have this same problem, but with a NEC NC1200C & Dolby DSS220 server + IMB board.
what are the procedures to solve it?
When I'm projecting at Scope format subtitles are very low, so I have to change to Flat, and subtitles are readables on the black zone under the frame.
Thanks in advance,
Giorgio.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12208
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-06-2013 03:51 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Make sure your IMB is set to 2K. In the Title set up, make sure you are using a DCDM_XYZ_185 (or 239 for scope) it is key that you specify that you have a 2K source...1998x1080 for flat and 2048x858 for scope. NEC will often use nothing (for auto) and the way subtitles are defined is a measurement off the bottom of the image...therefore you have to ensure that it is measuring from 1080, not 2160 (4K).

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Giorgio Volpi
Film Handler

Posts: 51
From: Caracas - Venezuela
Registered: Mar 2002


 - posted 11-07-2013 06:50 AM      Profile for Giorgio Volpi   Email Giorgio Volpi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank Steve.
This morning I checked that and the scope file was DCDM_XYZ_AUTO.
I changed it to DCDM_XYZ_239 and problem solved!
Giorgio.

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