Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Using a cinema bulb in an NEC digital projector (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Using a cinema bulb in an NEC digital projector
Travis Cape
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-06-2011 04:58 PM      Profile for Travis Cape   Email Travis Cape   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One of the theatres I service installed an NEC 2000 projector last year. We originally were to have Real D XL and use a 3000 watt cinema bulb. There was an issue with getting the XL box, so we got the Z screen. I gave up at the time since we had to get back open.

Here we are now about to change to the third lamp. We did get the XL box installed. I also ordered optical port glass. This theatre runs 2D 95% of the time. I am still curious about installing a standard Osram 3000watt/hs. The screen is 30 feet.

Thanks Travis

 |  IP: Logged

Chris Knighten
Film Handler

Posts: 8
From: Pasco, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2010


 - posted 06-06-2011 06:03 PM      Profile for Chris Knighten   Email Chris Knighten   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We run Osram 3000WHS XL bulbs in most of our NEC 2000's it will be plenty bright on a 30' screen. All you need to do is use the brass bulb adapter that is supplied with the NEC 2000.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12208
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-06-2011 09:51 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It all depends on your particulars. That is, what is the gain of your screen (silvers range from 2.2-2.4). You say your screen is 30-feet wide...are we to presume it is constant width for Flat and Scope?

NEC is the least light efficient but the Real-D XL is the most light efficient single projector 3D apparatus.

My numbers show that you need about 8000 lumens on your worst format (3D Flat). With the NC2000, that would mean the best choice on lamp is the Ushio DXL-20SN3 coming in at 9000-lumens. It is a 2400-hour lamp too.

The problem with using "Cinema" lamps is that their arc gap and electrode design are not optimized for the digital projector. You will likely get less light from a cinema grade 3KW than the digital 2KW. You'll pay more to light the 3K and have to change it sooner. Furthermore, the decay in light output on a cinema lamp is almost twice as fast (in the initial 100-hours).

You need less light for the 2D show (about 6400 lumens). Remember, don't set the 2D brightness to 14fL on a flat silver screen, it will look dark...go for 20fL and you will find that it have a nominal level much closer to the proper white screen.

-Steve

 |  IP: Logged

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8318
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 06-06-2011 10:37 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Furthermore, the decay in light output on a cinema lamp is almost twice as fast (in the initial 100-hours).


Thus, a question on this: I've seen NEC's using cinema grade bulbs like the Philips/LTi LTIX-3000HEH and 4200HEH bulbs, yet these are listed in NEC's preferred list for usage as well as the Ushio and Osram brands.

Are these cinema or digital grade bulbs? Also, how is the NEC the least light efficent unit - bad light engine, or sorts?

 |  IP: Logged

Travis Cape
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-06-2011 11:00 PM      Profile for Travis Cape   Email Travis Cape   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Steve,

It's common height 13' 6 x 30' 6 scope. We installed a silver screen from MDI.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12208
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-07-2011 05:53 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay...that changes things a bit but not the lamp so much. You don't have a 2.39:1 Scope image (it is too narrow so you must be cropping a bit in width).

Your worst format is 3D Scope...needing 8600 lumens, or so. Your best format is 2D Flat needing a little less than 4300 lumens. Again, the DXL-20SN3 is the best choice for this range.

Monte...define "preferred?" They are "approved." NEC is distributed by Strong. Strong distributes LTI/Phillips lamps...care to guess WHY they are on the approved list? Though, honestly, unless the lamps cause harm to the projector, (and fit), most any lamp should be "approved." The question is the light output of these non Digital lamps. Remember, it isn't light radiating from the arc that we are interested in, it the light throughput though the machine that we are.

The Helios lamps are not "digital" lamps. They are short gap standard lamps. They give an immediate satisfaction in the film application because they are brighter than they standard LTI lamp of the same wattage. However, what they don't boast about, is that their decay is also much steeper than a standard lamp. So, yes, in that first 100-hours, things look pretty good...but the light continues to dwindle at a pretty good clip.

The digital lamps coming out of Ushio are designed to get more light though the projector to begin with and to hold that light level longer too. A problem with say an XBO 3000W/HS lamp is that it does not know what lamphouse it is going in (film or digital, for that matter). It could be in an Ultra-80, Xetron, Kinoton....etc...all with different optics. A DXL-30SN3 was designed specifically for the NEC projector's optics to get the maximum out it. It doesn't fit the Barco, Christie or Sony.

As for NEC's least light efficient...well, it is on any given lamp size, regardless of who makes the lamp. Put a 4K lamp in an NC2000 and you get a whopping 11,800 lumens. Christie is doing that with 1800-2000 watts. Barco is doing it with between 2000-3000 watts. Yes, there is the uber-bright 4KW for the NEC that gets it to 17000 watts...for 500-600 hours. Christie is there with 3KW, Barco is there with 3KW on the B series or 4KW on the C series but lasting 1000-hours. You could make this comparison at any given lumen needed on any of their projectors...they just are not as light efficient as the other choices. Mind you, I have had ZERO problems with the NEC. They are not bad but they are not efficient. It makes them expensive to operate.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16221
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-07-2011 09:28 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think NEC needs to go back and look at their numbers again. I just completed an install where back to back there is a Christie ZX running a 3kw lamp and an NC-2000 running a long life 4kw LTI lamp. Now there really isn't a 3kw short gap lamp made for the NC-2000 although there is one made for the NC-1500 that will work... but it costs more than the long life(1500 hour)4kw LTI or Ushio lamp. This long life lamp overlaps the output of both a 3kw lamp and a 4kw lamp and I have found it works better and allows the use of the lamp feedback in the NEC to maintain constant brightness. We can't use the ZX's lamp loc because the lamp is operating to close to the top end, @ about 88%. Oh and the screens are both 38 foot wide Severtsons, the auditoriums exactly the same... Sure the NEC is a little more to operate, I believe that LTI lamp sells for about $150.00 more than the CDXL-30, both are 1500 hour lamps... but the advantage of the overlapping 4KW lamp allows for a better presentation becuase of the constant light output being in use. With my customer it's all about presentation, not operating cost and presentation should always come first. The better presentation brings in more customers and there is no need to worry about trivial differences on lamp cost.

By the way I am also getting completely away from using any Ushio lamps at all. They are going all direct sales and visiting theater chains one by one selling lamps hence sticking it to their long time dealers big time.

Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8318
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 06-07-2011 12:41 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
NEC is distributed by Strong. Strong distributes LTI/Philips lamps...care to guess WHY they are on the approved list?
...think, it spells it out right there..best leave it alone. (on a side note though: what caused the sale of LTI to Philips anywho?)

So, the secret equation here is: to find/use a bulb that matches the unit's optics then for best efficency then.

Like with sound: you find a system to match the
speakers ... "Gotcha!"

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16221
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-07-2011 01:34 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Monte... LTI makes the lamps specifically for the NEC. In all fairness I have had as good of luck with their lamps for NEC as I have had with Ushio's. They are also typically several hundred dollars less expensive...

 |  IP: Logged

Travis Cape
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-08-2011 01:10 PM      Profile for Travis Cape   Email Travis Cape   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

Thanks for helping. Is an Osram 2000w.hpn an equivalent to the Ushio?

The screen may be only 13 feet. It was such a battle with Chuck, that I'm not sure who won.

Travis

 |  IP: Logged

Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 100
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010


 - posted 06-10-2011 07:29 AM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"...Christie is doing that with 1800-2000 watts..."

... SD lamp: which is a very-short arc type. Lifetime ~1.5 lower compared too equivalent short arc.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12208
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-10-2011 05:28 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmm....The CDXL-18SD is 100% warranty to 1750-hours. It gets over 11,000 lumens in an M or CP2210. You'll not get that light/life (combination) out of anything else.

The XBO 2000W/HPN is for the NC2000 (or NC1200) and will yield about 8000 lumens (1000 less than the Ushio). So Scope is going to be your tight format, light wise.

-Steve

 |  IP: Logged

Travis Cape
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-10-2011 08:35 PM      Profile for Travis Cape   Email Travis Cape   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Steve, the prices I have gotten indicate the Ushio being $200 more than the Osram.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12208
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-10-2011 10:30 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They are not the same lamp. Nothing, at the moment, beats are meets an Ushio in terms of light and holding its light. They also have a far better track record on not exploding, as compared to Osram.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17687
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-11-2011 01:21 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ditto, Ushio/Christie cannot be beat by ANY other bulb. Sure they may cost a little more, but just do the math. The light levels they put out vs. the cost of hour of operation and the whole "not exploding" aspect makes them THE choice.

[ 06-11-2011, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2018 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.