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Author Topic: Master Image VS. Real D Preston Drum Film Handler Posts: 7 From: Charlotte, NC, USA Registered: Oct 2010 posted 11-17-2010 11:19 AM                        We are planning on upgrading one of our houses to Digital with 3D capabilities. I have very little experience with Digital 3D and I am finding it difficult to advise the management partners on which 3D system to buy. We will be installing a NEC 2000C with a NEC Zoom lens. We were quoted for a Master Image system but we have to buy it out right. Real D has no upfront cost but they take a cut of the ticket price and you are locked in for years. Any opinions on Master Image or Real D? Thanks!  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 11-17-2010 01:24 PM                     Welcome - you oughta look into Dolby Digital 3D which would work great with that NEC 2000. Be the most cost effective move in the long run. Good luck - Monte  |  IP: Logged John Wilson Film God Posts: 5438 From: Sydney, Australia. Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-17-2010 01:30 PM                     Hi Preston and welcome to Film-Tech. Personally and from my own experience, I would go with Master Image over Real D. I had big issues that were never resolved satisfactorily about our XD RealD system. Anything that was close up in the action just got lost as if it was unable to process it. The same shot in Master Image is great. Now, I only ever saw one RealD XD and that was mine and I believe it had issues. Perhaps other XD's were fine. I don't know but mine certainly didn't cut the mustard. An added bonus is that you can just unplug these things and wheel it to another screen if you want...plus, of course and as you say, you own it outright whereas RealD want both your first and second child in their contracts. Seriously, those things kill three trees just for one contract.  |  IP: Logged David Favel Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 764 From: Ashburton, New Zealand Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-17-2010 08:52 PM                     Actually the choice for me is Xpand vs Dolby.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-17-2010 09:14 PM                     Master image is WAY WAY WAY too over priced! It's a $6000.00 box... not $32,000.00! Geez, I could copy the data from the EPROM in there and build em myself for about 3K. I've worked with all the digital 3-D formats and still prefer Dolby over them all. BUt with Dolby you will be loosing about 60% of the light! The Dolby Wheel assy installation into the NEC 2000 is blazingly simple! We recently had a Master Image filter wheel explode at one location which gave us second thoughts about their safety. Yes, it was one of the new type wheels with the green sticker! It sent shards of plastic 5 booths down as well as into the arm of the young lady that had just started the show. It ripped the safety cover over the wheel right off the motor! As a result of this we are replacing all the Master Image units with Real-D and to be honest everyone that was in attendance after the switch to Real-D completely agreed Real-D had a slightly sharper image hands down and I attribute that to the fact that on the Real-D you are projecting through coated glass on both sides of the Z screen. On the Master Image you are projecting through plastic. From a light standpoint both are about the same. The Real-D mount for the NEC 2000 is very slick... If you haev a deeply curved ascreen stick with the standard Real-D unit. Otherwise go for the high brightness unit. Installation time on the NEC-2000 for the standard Real-D is about an hour. Ditto for a Christie or Barco. Also... If you go with a GDC server it has built in Ghost Busting abilities that no other server seems to be able to do. So you can play non ghost busted content on it and not have any problem with ghosting what so ever. The GDC is by far the slickest server out there. I have 4 Master Image units available and I'll make you a hell of a deal on one or all of them.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-18-2010 01:44 AM                     While I absolutely agree with Mark on the cost of the Master Image being ridiculously high, I have yet to see Real-D ever best Master Image in image quality. Real-D ghosts, even when ghost busted...particularly if you are over-bright on the image when Master Image won't Profit wise, even with the hefty price for the unit...if you do a cost analysis, your profit on a Master Image system versus Real-D will be higher after less than 2-years. That 50-cents/ticket adds up REAL fast. At just 100-tickets/day (average) for one year, you will pay Real-D over $18,250/year. So, by the second year, you will have spent more than Master Image...even if you have to replace a few discs. Real-D is typically a 10-year deal so its real cost is closer to $200,000/screen over 10-years. Master Image is closer to $4000/year over 10-years (factoring new discs at least once/year or more). It isn't really a close call...from a business stand point. Now as to Real-D...unless you REALLY NEED THE LIGHT stay away from the XL version. It has a physical impossibility. It is trying to converge two identical images from separate vantage points...though only separated by about 6-inches, it makes it impossible to get perfect convergence in the vertical plane...which is highlighted by curved screens. You can get it close but ANY misconvergence comes off of resolution. With the standard Z-screen...there will not be any problems...it is the fastest install, though the flimsyest. Also, on the XL version...you better have a TALL port to get the top image out. And Mark was generous on the Dolby light loss. Dolby is 10% efficient (you lose 90% of your starting light) by the time you measure through the glasses. In fact, depending on color correction, I've had it down to a mere 8%. Real-D is about 15% as is Master Image. Xpan-D is closer to 18% (nothing is in front of the lens or in the light path except the glasses). Real-D XL is closer to 28% (rather impressive, actually, for light...but STAY AWAY if you can). -Steve  |  IP: Logged Brendan Penny Expert Film Handler Posts: 121 From: Bundoora, Australia Registered: Dec 2008 posted 11-18-2010 03:55 AM                     Oh here we go on the Mark exploding wheel crap again. Yeah yeah its probably 2 grand to build but you know what. Why shouldn't they charge 20k for a system considering on what competitors are charging? Oh and you can't sell those 4 used units because your asking price is more than what I would pay for a new one. Calling GDC a slick looking server! OMG you crack me up sometimes. You have to stop. My stomach hurts. Quick someone call Bill Gates and tell him that GDC managed to get a copy of Windows 3.1 and build an entire server based around the GUI!! Why don't you just do the right thing and sell them for 6k and set a good example for the other manufacturers  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 11-18-2010 04:19 AM                     ..at least Mark is thinking about safety. If I owned a theatre, I wouldn't want a device of any sorts that could have that potiental of physical harm (let alone facing lawsuits that would follow such an incident) to any of my employees no matter if that device is superior than to the next device. Thus Brandon, when a disc blows apart and maybe similar situations might happen in your complex, please let us know on the outcome of your experiences. I'd rather have a GDC than a Doremi - more user friendly. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Brendan Penny Expert Film Handler Posts: 121 From: Bundoora, Australia Registered: Dec 2008 posted 11-18-2010 04:40 AM                     quote: Monte L Fullmer I'd rather have a GDC than a Doremi - more user friendly. Dammit. I can't even argue that comment!  |  IP: Logged Preston Drum Film Handler Posts: 7 From: Charlotte, NC, USA Registered: Oct 2010 posted 11-18-2010 08:29 AM                        Thanks for your thoughts. Sounds like Master Image will reap a better return on ticket gross- which of course drives most theatre owners’ decision making. The exploding wheel is kind of freaky, but I'm sure it was a fluke? Right? Did you report the issue to the manufacturer? Did you get any comment back about the incident?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-18-2010 08:58 AM                     To be fair, Mark is selling them (probably for an end user) at about $10K below new prices (USA pricing). So it isn't exactly stealing to offer used at 30% off. It wouldn't surprise me if the price reflects what the company paid for them versus what they have made off of them. The fact that you won't pay above $20K fuels more to Mark's point about the units themselves being over priced for what they are. I have heard about exploding discs though I have not had one explode yet...I can certainly believe it...those things are bookin' when they are in show mode! I am surprised that they don't have some really good glass to cover the portion where the light enters/exits the top of the wheel...it would probably help with keeping dust out too. That would cut WAY down on the possibility of the wheel parts exiting the shroud. If you are paying for glasses...Dolby 3D remains the cheapest, if you can do a good job of reclaiming them. If glasses are free, then Master Image wins but as Dolby's glasses prices keep getting lower...that gap is closing. Dolby's system has no consumable (though they have damagable) parts... Master Image's wheel does need to be changed periodically...depending on your environment. If you are concerned about technical quality...then Dolby and XpanD are the best as they use a white screen that won't over saturate colors and also provide a more uniform experience for all. -Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-18-2010 09:00 AM                     Actually Master Image had little to say about the wheel explosion since the unit was out of warranty. They did send us a new sensor at n/c. I know of three that have done this now in my service area. Fortunately none that I had installed or sold. No injuries on the other two because it was well into the show and no one standing near it. Still a hell of a mess to clean up because it throws pieces of wheel clear into the next county. A new wheel is about 500USD. The way the plastic wheel is secures to the hub is uber retarted! Screw heads placed directly onto the plastic and tourqued to 12 inch pounds. There should be a metal disk over the plastic wheel and then the screws tourqued to 12 inch pounds against the metal disk. These things are so cheaply built! On the other hand I also lost a Dolby 3-D wheel from a 6kw lamp explosion in a Christie CP-2000 a couple of years back. A glass shard fomr the lamp went right through the heat filter. The repairs to get that projector back on screen were 22K USD. Christie did end up covering that since the lamp had ONLY gone 14 hours over it's rated warranty and Christie specifies a typical 1000 hour life span for the CDXL-60. @ Steve.... I think you'll find that with the Ghost busting software turned on in the GDC plus a Ghostbusted print there isn't going to be any ghosting. I didn't see any on the last two installs running @ 6fl. Megamind content was ghostbusted... but Avatar content was not. Neither had any hint of any ghosting at that light level. Screens were brand new Severtson and properly curved for the room by Franklin. @ Brendan... You need to pull your head out of your ass. You come across as a total iddiott. Your customers probably read these forums too. Please contribute something useful in future posts . @ Preston... Seriously consider Dolby 3-D if your screen is within what the NC-2000 can do. I have two systems of lately that are Dolby 3-D and the screens are 30 and 35 feet wide respectively. The NC-2000 works wekk with Dolby 3-D up to about that size. Both screens are 1.4 gain. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-18-2010 12:07 PM                     The "current" MasterImage disc is held on by screws and flat washers (possibly thrust washers...that is what they should be though I like Mark's ring idea better...gives it that Norelco/Kinoton touch). As for ghosting...I've seen it on most all Real-D...including ghost busted version...sure it is much reduced but not gone. As for 6fL...are you measuring in the center? If so...that isn't really over bright as that is only 6fL in ONE spot. The vast majority is less...though with a curved screen it will be a bit better distributed. Then again, it depends on your curve...by proper, how did he do it?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-18-2010 01:18 PM                     He most likeley follows reccomended curve calculations for D-Cinema as per Harkness Hall. Most follow their guidelines for D-Cinema screen curvature now. It is a much shallower reccomended curve for D-Cinema vs. what one might do for filum. There is a trade off on pixel loss along the curve vs. light fall off at the sides on a silver sheet and one has to be very careful when calculating this so both are not extreme. He did a pretty good job on the curve radius. DMD screen file masking was very minimal all the way around when I got done. On the sides and top just 5 to 8 pixels... more on the bottom curve but not more than 30 pixels at the worst point in the curve. And that is dam little loss! Projection down angle was only about 2 degrees!! I am pretty sure that Harkness Hall came up with the doo-doo for D-Cinema curve. Bobby may have his own method to calculate it, you'd have to ask him. I don't know anyone else that builds and installs as many screen frames as he does. Not even Mulone. When we ordered the frames I discussed this with him and he said he had that all worked out and the curve was based on throw and room size. As it tirns out light distribution was actually quite good across the spread of the screen but of course there was considerable fall off in light level in the three front rows. They are just 200 seat rooms, Screen width 36 feet, throw about 72'. Stadium in back and 4 front rows on a slight slope in front of the stadium. I guess you need to try Real-D on a GDC server. No one has seen any hint of ghosting at standard light levels. One would have certainly seen it in Avatar as it was a non-ghost busted print! Mark  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 11-18-2010 03:23 PM                     Mark, are you sure that only GCD offers ghostbusting capabilities? According to RealD instructions Dolby, Doremi, Qube, Sony and Kodak servers support it. http://www.reald.com/3deqinstructions/  |  IP: Logged

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